In Reply to: Re: I see it differently though posted by Thinker on December 08, 2009 at 12:53:39:
"When it comes down to it, I will not deny Christ in my life or my faith in Him"...Wonderful...I am thrilled to read that
"Thank God Jesus wasn't a Christian."...that is the truth according to Acts 11:26...assumed...that the verse talks about Jesus' disciples and not of someone else...but even the apostle Paul said...be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ...1.Cor.11:1...so following Paul, would have been following Christ...but I think it talks anyway in Acts 11:26 about the disciples of Jesus...and a follower is a disciple...and Jesus isn't His own follower, that'd be circular/ridiculous thinking....but that's where the "trouble" starts...pre-ascension, the discipleship standard was very high, Jesus being personally around...post-ascension, the first disciple probably kept up that "original pace"...but then you have Paul saying to the emerging church-members, to work with your own hands 1.Thess 4:11...so I figure, the focus shifted sometimes...those called to evangelise and those to maintain a good fellowship at places given.
It helped me to "divide" the word also according to the periods given to man...I could read the gospel with the view, as if Christ was still walking here and thinking, I would get such anointing, that I should have diverse manifestations...if I don't have them, then I am
totally wicked...although true...there is another angle to it...namely, that the manifestations anyway have shrunk over the decades and centuries...I might not be a 100% cessationist...but it helped me to go on very big distance to those groups, who were breeding thoughts, Berg & Co. were so familiar with and where I think he got lifted up in pride...being the pentecostal-charismatic churches.I am not such an all-out Darby/brethren sympathiser either...but I like lots of their very studied, Bible learned attitude...no hierarchy either, which I much preferred, similar to you....what rubs me wrong with them is their know-it-all-attitude often...thinking, they can explain about everything...and the way they explain 1.Cor.13...it almost is a must to have that perfect knowledge...if you insist that the perfect
in Verse 10 is the Word/Canon.
After I left TF...I realised, I need some outfit for the inspiration of my children...to help them finding the right people to mingle with...this was the primary motive...however, besides my grandeur, to have known the Bible pretty well, I realised others were doing very well too, even better than me...one fellow/brother I met here, had studied ancient Greek and Hebrew, although having no highschool diploma, being "just" a worker...he is more fluent in Hebrew than students anyway and even some Profs wanted his profound opinion.
Still I think he's a bit too stuck on the law...on the other hand I think, along with him, that modern churches tend to be too libertinistic...and in that TF took/takes the cake.
"So much wrong has been done in the name of Christianity, of God."
Well, dear Thinker, pls bear in mind what the devil did in paradise in the name of God...Jesus said, he was a liar and murderer from the beginning.So since he was allowed to roam around there and also while Jesus was on earth (Mt 4...temptation) and giving Peter wrong thoughts...why would it surpise us, to see his continued bad fruits?...he obviously serves also in church...having servants there...would that be surprising???How many things in the "system" wear a certain label...but it happens to be a cheap imitation, a fraud.
"Yet there are good Christians too"....well, even Jesus passed on the honour to the father, about being good: Matthew 19:16,17
and Paul admitted, that in his flesh dwelled no good thing, Romans 7:18
Every time I hear people praising themselves or others instead of honouring God and/ or debasing themselves, I innerly shrink or "fume"...it's just not "inspiring" to listen to all this selfgloryfying BS....so, dear Thinker, since asking Jesus into my heart...also joining TF and making some of my biggest blunders/sins there, I realise, I am too rotten, to have any chance to get to heaven, except by God's grace, forgiveness and mercy....through Jesus Christ His son...I am just too bad...although I have done nothing, which would put me into jail, that I know of....still, the standard of God's perfection...real love...is just immensely high...yet He wants to perfect us more and more...but it's not own efforts, it's HIS work HE begun in us...but the works and words prove, where I am at today...long way to go....in that regard...fellowship really helps: Confessing faults one to another is also good, recommended and needful...which you can't do by yourself...plus you get the chance of being observed and getting corrected...although in my church it seems, they don't notice much...a bit to my dismay.
Also we should not forsake assembling ourselves Heb. 10:25...admonition and one of the "laws" of the NT so to speak...you are right in pointing out the many mistakes and then where is the right one left, if at all?...well, a church is not an exibition or museum, rather a workshop...I heard once an evangelist say...very true and I need myself still so much perfecting...how could I look down on others...even if it nerves at times, the "backwardness"...scarce scripture knowledge etc.
The church I go to, I won't join as I member...I donate monthly...but I won't join for the things, major things, I don't agree with and which I would have then to bring up to get corrected & I have li ttle to no hope, that I would be seriously heard...like divorce and remarriage...the role of the women I see more like Paul and I don't believe in a hierarchy really too much either...besides little "flops" like Christmas trees or scarce intros to baptism or leavened bread for communion and no real wine etc. etc...but still, they are waaaaaaaay saner than TF and more active than most churches I know of...plus the sermons are really Jesus-centered and the songs mostly very uplifting.