In Reply to: Re: Question from Thinker posted by Skep on December 20, 2009 at 21:58:44:
I really like the typo...but Peace...I make many mistakes than you:
best/good is to google about the subject...to get some books about it..I think I mentioned Bart D. Ehrman, who has turned from "real" believer ...born again etc to sceptic/unbeliever...he's one specialist of the basic NT- text-versions...of course he's not my favourite...rather not at all...but it's helpful at times to know the arguments of the once believers, what their problems are.What I do since long is, looking at the various extremes of opinions of experts (in this case Ehrman is just one opinion of many), believing that the truth must be in such interval of extremes to both sides, kind of open intervals often, because more views add with time...trying to follow the most reasonable approach and that includes also the possibiliy to obtain the most contradictionfree interpretation/view possible...for God is not the author of confusion...1.Cor.14:33
On the other hand I realise more and more, that when I developed such fancy for Gödel since long, applying that to real science,... well to quite an extent it applies also to God, His word and mostly His "other" thoughts hidden from us
Deuteronomy 29:29 -- "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."
...there are many things then, which are undecideable...in agreement with Gödel: true/ untrue...and where it might be good for Christians...in the interpretations...to be less dogmatic, in the sense of threatening the opposite side with cursings (although Paul did that too in one instance:
Galatians 1:8 -- "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.")
, like the catholic church did from the early beginning with opponents
Mandatory, reigning over all is the following to me:
2 Corinthians 3:6 -- "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
So text versions differing only in a letter...which happens quite often...are really no problem...copy-mistakes or different rendering of names e.g.
John 6:63 -- "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
John 14:26 -- "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 21:25 -- "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
John 16:12 -- "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."
The last verse can deceive though to the attitude of onesself being nowadays strong enough to receive some new wine...more teachings...leading to prophetic/gnostic pride...it's important to notice, that the prophets were foundational for the church...Jesus being among other things also called prophet, but not all apostles must necessarily be prophets vice versa
Ephesians 2:20 -- "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (also in such context Deuteronomy 13)
I tend to see the decisive prophetic "thing" something more of the past...foundational (with some minor exception in Rev.11)
Revelation 22:18 -- "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"
Revelation 22:19 -- "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
resembles these:
Deuteronomy 4:2 -- "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Deuteronomy 12:32 -- "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."
Joshua 1:7 -- "Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest."
Proverbs 30:6 -- "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
Similar to Jn 21:25 there could have been also more to the OT...which is apparently missing??:
1 Chronicles 29:29 -- "Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,"
2 Chronicles 9:29 -- "Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Neb
I tend to believe the following: since the earliest NT-fragments are of the 2nd century our time, except may be a tiny fragment from Qumran being debated as being older from NT times...it seems, they are may be not the very original ones ...but copies...so that many tend to speak of the basic (now available) text (versions)...a lot got destroyed via the natural way or due to persecution...the latter reminds me of it, that Jesus is the living Word and also suffered persecution, there is the similarity to the written word for me...furthermore we have the implications of the following verse:
Matthew 13:19 -- "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."
How many in the theological faculties turn away from the Word for lack of humility I say...and lack of understanding???!!!...
Ro. 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
But if any teacher/prof is reborn, I deeply consider his teachings...otherwise I learn from the other's confusions...may be...where the problem and may be the solution lies.
As far as the OT goes, the oldest version today is from what I know the Codex Leningradensis...about 1000 years, roughly, older, than the earliest dateable fragments of the NT...apart of course from the OT-Qumran parts...which is not all the OT altogether either
With the NT variations...I have become a bit more "critical"...I used more and more the German/Greek interlinear version based on a Nestle-Aland version of the NT...(result of comparing text-passages)...text-critique has it's drawbacks of course...but the KJV-only-movement is also a bit
"handicapped" IMO...first of all, the Textus receptus, which Luther apparently used (some argue he copied from others or used the Latin vulgata...his Hebrew anyway being "weak")...a work done by Erasmus, was done in a hurry...the end of Revelations missing in the Greek version Erasmus had from Basel...I think...which he retranslated from the Vulgata...all so that he could be first with a Greek NT edition before some Spanish edition group was able to put out their work...not very noble the interests then.
Later, better Majority text-forms (kind of eastern circulated text forms...centre I think was first Antioch) appeared and I am not in the know right now, whether the KJV used the Erasmus form or already some "refined" versions...based on more scripts.
Here's an example where the KJV is obviously not so advantageous and frankly IMO...which I voiced on a German language Bible board after the question/ problem got me interested...the KJV is there faulty/misleading at the best:
1 Corinthians 11:24 -- "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."
("KJViests" try to get away by saying the breaking relates to the bread but not His body)
in contrast to:
Psalms 34:20 -- "He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken."
John 19:33 -- "But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:"
John 19:36 -- "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken."
For some (Alexandrinic e.g.) older than the majority text versions have a different....shorter rendering:
this is my body, for you....just like that...other versions/manuscripts add other verbs, not making it "better" therewith
My opinion: I much prefer the short...older version versus the majority-text...because it is in line with the rest of the corpus OT/NT and not in blatant contrast/contradiction
So "digging" the meaning can be some "acheological" work...Berg thought likewise...only that he added so much rubble and rubbish and poison.