In Reply to: Re: Clergy example posted by OT2 on February 08, 2010 at 13:26:17:
Well, dear OT2...it's also a very sensitive subject...we all would love to see loved ones saved and can hardly stand the rejection of faith in Christ or if we encounter something similar with someone you deeply like and love....you "hope"...think...imagine...that God loves that person much more than yourself and wants the best for that person...and it's true...God loves each and everyone more than we do...
On the other hand there are these pretty "heavy" wordings of the scripture...some resort in ignoring them, some "delete" them
(I was surprised to learn, that the aramaic NT-Canon doesn't seem to include revelations...last I checked, but I did remember, that revelation had a "hard time" to be included into the canon anyway)...or you can have a modern theology revision/glossing over of the "tricky" parts...to sound more appealing...so that God & His ways turn out to look more "respectable"...lake of fire or doom and brimstone is not really so attractive it seems.I was so touched by the reactions of the Haitians, the survivors...so many took it personally...to heart, seeking repentance in field-services....really touched my heart.I was told, that after WWII churches were also very filled in Germany and hopefully the sermons were accordingly (??!)
And I must say, it's not altogether easy, simple, to put the puzzle together...to get a clue, what is God's way with men in general...although foremost one should focus on whether one is following personally close or rather afar off.
Every now & then I look into the argumentations pro and contra universal reconciliation...at most some can be "destilled" indirectly or expending the meaning of some verses...but directly you have no verse...to my knowledge... e. g.saying that people get out of the lake of fire..therefore basing a theology on that kind of hope for all...so to speak...might be building on sand.It definitely is "more attractive" and quite a few theologians support it...yet if it's not clear cut...without a shade of a doubt, then I find that super risky to present that....but anyway, I make it a habit to listen to both sides of the spectrum and then trying to reach to a conclusion, who has the better arguments...but this is also not always on my priority-list.
The same goes for other "speculations"...I have a really big collection of the epistle to the romans-commentaries...it became almost an "obsession"...kind of..if I don't know all the meaning of Romans 8-11, I reasoned...may be someone else got the right one...so I kept collecting (without reading them all ; ) ...though I can't really blame Calvin too much...focussing on some of these "predestination"-verses...same Augustine....but that church (reformed) or even him seemed to have overlooked other verses of importance...like about repentance etc.
I admit, there was a time, that I was greatly attracted (and confused) by reformation theology...yet in the end you wind up blaming God for everything and hardly anymore yourself...because everything is predestined...plus if you take that experiment of Libet (I think he's called)
Take OSAS...as you mentioned here and elsewhere...another very "heavy" subject...I read a book of McDowell (I think it was him?!) on that subject...bottom line/jist:...people are saved for ever once born again...but some just aren't and just kind of "spout off" the right terminology...but who is & who isn't is hard to discern (another example is Simon Magus of Acts 8)...my kind of summing it up...I came to similar conclusion before, but then some developments are a bit disturbing...meaning how much people go back after having had a "born again"-experience (plus the right interpretation for Hebrews 6 and 10...plus John 15)...Prof Bart Ehrman is a "confusing" example...I think he considers himself now an agnostic.
Yet John makes it sound so simple: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...1.John 5:1...for whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world verse 4...extend that with 1.John 3:9..balanced with 1.John 1:8,9 what do we get??
I think, if I sin it's my old flesh letting it in & my thoughts not being in HIM...it's a bit like Romans 7...where people argue whether that describes Paul/men before becoming a Christian or as a Christian...Even if we don't really know for sure, who is saved or not, because to our observation someone is apparently pretty much a sinner (like everyone else and therewith a bad example to the Christian cause)...still I would never say someone is unsaved (if that person confesses Jesus to be the Christ)...but call him to repentance....the same I should also hope and expect of others for myself...
When I was dating a sweet, divorced sister and mother of one in Switzerland...10 years ago...a brother I know here said: my blessing you don't have for that relationship...I gulped, but hoped he was wrong...but because of my respect for him, his words weighed heavy.
Finally it says:The Lord knoweth them that are his.And let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity(injustice)
2.Tim 2:19...that's where the lists of Gal 5 and 1.Cor 6 for me ties in as well...to learn to resist...to depart...to abstain...to say no to sin and temptation....in a world where sin runs "pretty freely" (towards Mt.24:12)...it's quite a fight I suppose & learned myself...so if anyone falls I learned not to laugh about it...neither to scold when down, but helping to get on the feet again, but also to "analyse" what lead to the "falling down"......the early churches also practiced "church-chastisement"...whatever the term in English...meaning to exclude people from fellowship, conducting wrongly...not according to scripture...all that is missing nowadays more and more...one reason being the finances...the "funny" thing, TF threw out people (not minding the financial loss and manpower) for really "screwy" reasons.