In Reply to: Re: Simple doctrinal survey on women pastors posted by OT2 on April 16, 2010 at 15:05:25:
Dear OT2 and others...a pretty big problem to address...so it could easily be, that I fail in my "speculation"
However...as Paul sometimes argues...I think I also have the Spirit of God
1Cr 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
May be I give a short intro of how I viewed things in my early beginnings of believing and also my relationship vs. the "weaker sex"....weaker indeed they are on the physical...hormone-directed level...however if you induce the hormones(male) on a bigger scale, combined with very hard bodily exercise...you get powerpacked women, with biceps/muscles far beyond mine and many others...though still under the male-bodybuilding level...furthermore I know, that women can do about all the things men can do on a practical level, if interested and taught...up to flying jets etc.... there is no limit apparently...only that many women don't "gravitate" to the physically more straineous jobs.
We live in times, where people for one are not so easily content with a meagre income and therefore have to look for more means of income...therefore since quite some time women add considerably to the family income or even contribute the bigger part...my mother
earned her own salary while we were younger.
In my family, my mother seemed to be the "stronger"...more outspoken personality...my sister is also the elder and I would venture to say...I was a bit female-dominated in my life...but in pretty laissez-faire Berlin I grew up in...I thought feminism...gender-equalness and more (of course same payment for same work) should be a must...to some extent I still hold on to earlier tenets...if they happen to be in line with the Bible.
However feminism went to the other extreme...e.g. getting rid of the father image of the Bible
Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
There is little to nothing to justify that...I rather have the Holy Spirit as the motherly part of the trinity...there are biblical scholars who support that...so these feminist Bible-editions are just pretty crappy IMO
Noether proves how smart women can be in about any field including mathematics
Now the question would be to me, how Paul would react/write, if Prof B. Aland or Prof .Brooten would be in a congregation...say Corinth??...Pretty hypothetical, I know...so I just give my 2 cents worth of comments...
according to:
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
we're build upon the work done through Christ in the apostles, upon HIM...upon the apostles (past for me...since the foundation)... witnesses of HIS resurrection etc....therefore the Junia-discussion is only marginal of interest here to me...I personally can live comfortably with the high probability, that Junia was either an apostle herself or noted/respected among the apostles...Working among the unsaved/missions etc is one thing....speaking to the brethren in a church/believers...preaching IMO another...
So what if a Prisca or Junia had appeared in Corinth, would they have had to be silent?...well, if they had they head covered, they were allowed to prophesy/pray anyway...preaching...I don't know...rather not...either Paul was aware, that women of that calibre weren't around there and it was a local matter or rather a worldwide matter...I believe the latter...as much as the mentioned women seemed to be respected in the early church, there must have been reasons, why it was not their due to address a whole congregation of believers, with many, many men.
I can only think of the "natural order"...which also is reflecting the spiritual...It was first the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Spirit...it was first Adam, then Eve...it were 12 male apostles of the primary circle...Jesus could have easily included a woman...as many also followed HIM...Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch HIM after resurrection...the apostles were...
There is a difference being made and all this equality/egality-drive in many "modern-churches"...I can't and won't handle.
Isa 3:12 [As for] my people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
This is a bit the danger too, of wanting to rule... though it's OT...I take some hint from it for the church...If it were very clear cut in the NT...I'd have no "emotional" problems with it...I am kind of /or have been: a women-adorer...however with time passing...I am about to loose that adoration as well,...giving more room for adoring Christ and HIS Word
Again, women are extremely sharp witted...very kind...helpful...motherly warm and affectionate...the church without them, would not be here...through very godly women generations upon generations came to existence...last not least...rather foremost...Jesus HIMSELF...though Mary is not to be worshipped like the catholic (roman) church does...pitiful...there is only one mediator.
All in all, there was a time for prophetesses and apostles...priests we should all be...that includes obviously the sisters...however I don't believe really too much in a paid clergy...so all these posts and positions are a bit of a "nuisance" to me.
In my church there were some weak attempts for women to preach...two I remember...one being the wife of our youthpastor who completed with him the same time her degree...bachelor of divinity or
whatever the translation would be...I felt pretty uncomfortable about it...women have their turn in moderating the sunday service...but none of them...praying or giving the blessing before parting...is covering their heads...I consider them to be pretty ignorant...but they are the same, who are ignorant about divorce and remarriage...something I learned recently, the pastor wants to stay "mum about"...so what to expect...TG the wife of our now youth pastor isn't inclined to preach it seems
Frankly...since the preaching is anounced months ahead...I would not attend, if it were some sister
and I remember, that the place was left idle, when once that wife of the former youth pastor preached...so I was caught by surprise.
Last not least TF is a bad example and even the resigned...recent head of the German lutheran church is also showing the limits...not to say, that church-history only produced male heroes, rather the contrary seems to be...that isn't proving to me, that in such (end)times we should proceed otherwise...with female church leaders
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:37 And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Act 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into [the house of] Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.
1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Cr 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only
Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.
Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.