In Reply to: Re: My take... posted by OT2 on April 20, 2010 at 15:18:19:
A possible translation of Eph. 3:15 I think the Darby-version
Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [of our Lord Jesus Christ],
Eph 3:15 of whom every family in [the] heavens and on earth is named,
Trinity 3 minus father and son all male leaves the Holy Spirit as female...I know TF were kind of proponents of this idea...but so what??...they sexualised about everything...they went as far in their crazy imagination, that children would enjoy...sex... penetration...
all because Berg was apparently "happy" the mexican childcare-helper fondled him...if that is true...so we know, that the Holy Spirit became pictured as some .....(insert pls.) goddess....dull and blind as I was, I saw some truth behind it even then from scripture, but
not to the point of TF
Eph 5:31 Because of this a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be united to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly.
this is for me "the proof"...that the Holy Spirit should be female...by simple logic...Christ must have left heaven...father and mother...had to die...like the first Adam going to sleep...to rise again to win his bride...a new Eve...given to Him by His father...(kind of "arranged" marriage)...we can also take comfort in Ephesians:
Eph 1:4 according as he has chosen us in him before [the] world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love;...emphasis in the choice before the times...is soley..in HIM...that makes me less and less a Calvinist...the more I have pondered about it...
Gen 2:21 And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead.
Gen 2:22 And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man.
"strange"...the forming of the woman/bride...happened in the time of the death/slumber of the first Adam...I think there to be a similarity too to the second Adam/Christ...amazing...that the second child at time was more blessed...Esau first born e.g....Esau HE hated...in comparison
So...in the meantime it seems to be "Pech"...bad luck...sorry for the expression ffor our dear sisters...that's the way it seems to me...in the resurrection things could be all different again, I assume...after all, I can't remember having chosen my sex/gender...all this has also to do to abide in one's calling...and to be content with such things as they are....envy is again wrong here...even if I can sympathise with the women I think they are wonderful and I try my level best to praise wonderful female singers...or actresses or
whatever else a woman is led to lead...however leading the congregation is another matter
1Cr 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Cr 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
That is pretty decisive I'd say...rather this is it...I mean, how can people then argue about that???
I recently had a talk about the sunday-sermon of the youth-pastor...in the course of it I lamented a bit...like other brethren in the congregation...that there is too little talk about the endtime...it went back and forth...and I kind of "felt" his consternation...I talked about my experience with "strange" theologians...explaining away Daniel...but then how did Jesus call HIM a prophet??...to avoid that
conflict...you could then target Mt. 24 and make it sound as not very original words of Jesus and so we're in the middle of heavy Bible-criticism...
But the same is happening to Paul...should Jesus really have ordained such things...showing them to Paul???? etc...that's where I sign off...cause people need to get their "love-life" straight...loving Jesus and the word above all...or may be my supposed vocation...even as a female???
In Reply to: Re: Gendering the HS posted by CB on August 29, 2007 at 19:00:27:
What I consider a privilege since having left TF is reading up on topics which interest me and dig into the subject & sources for the time available to me...and that is the huge plus-point...if the subject is very dear to me, I use much time on it...(imposible in TF)
the subject in question has been quite dear to me & until further evidence, I have settled for the Holy Spirit as a somewhat feminine part of the Godhead...pro-Berg is not the issue..it's rather what is right, after studying up the subject.By studying an object one should try not to make it an issue of pride & personal prosperity...being idealistic about it...not to make oneself a name with it e.g. I had quite a few arguments, scriptural ones, in fervorur for that stance, so
I spare myself the effort, as many are known here to readers & others could be googled by simply inserting: gender Holy Spirit...
so I copy here part of an article which is deep enough for the beginning & may it suffice to add, that I always thought Ephesians 3:15 "makes more sense"
if there is not only a male-female-children earthly family, but likewise the heavenly one as well...(Key study Bible mentions for "pasa patria", that it could mean each fathership, but also the whole family) at least my mind is happy about that thought for the past xty years...one last thing:
Being against TF does not mean to me: take a thought of TF and the contrary of it must be the truth.Rotten food is so deceptive, cause you bite in it, thinking that the whole must be good...by first glance, taste etc.
Is There a Question About the Gender of the Holy Spirit?
In my graduate Semitics program at UCLA, one of the languages I had to study was Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic written with rounded letters reminiscent of modern Arabic. Syriac was the language of people living in northern Mesopotamia, from at least 300 BC until the time Arabic became dominant in the region, around 1000 AD. Most of the Syriac documents available today were produced by a Monophysite branch of Christianity, today known as the Syrian Orthodox Church (monophysitism is the belief that Christ had but one nature). One striking puzzlement of the texts, at least to me, was the constant reference to the Holy Spirit as "she". I was aware, of course, that in Aramaic (and hence in the dialect known as Syriac) the natural gender of the word "spirit" was feminine; however, I was surprised to discover that this accident of grammar had resulted in a whole theology constructed around the femininity of the third person of the Godhead.
An example of Syriac theology is found in the apocryphal Acts of Thomas; it is usually assumed that this particular work was influenced by speculative gnostic Judaism because it contains the notion, that associated with God was a wisdom, or creative power - a spirit - which was feminine. In an invocation accompanying baptism, Thomas calls for the Holy Spirit:
Come, holy name of Christ that is above every name;
Come, power of the Most High and perfect compassion;
Come, thou highest gift;
Come, compassionate mother;
Come, fellowship of the male;
Come, thou (f.) that dost reveal the hidden mysteries;
Come, mother of seven houses, that thy rest may be in the eighth house.
(Acts of Thomas 2:27)
Come, silence that dost reveal the great deeds of the whole greatness;
Come thou that dost show forth the hidden things
And make the ineffable manifest;
Holy Dove that bearest the twin young;
Come, hidden Mother;
Come, thou that art manifest in thy deeds
and dost furnish joy and rest for all that are joined with thee;
Come and partake with us in this Eucharist
Which we celebrate in thy name,
and in the love-feast in which we are gathered together at thy call.
(Acts of Thomas 5:50)
After reading such materials I decided that Syrian Orthodox Christianity was somewhat heretical (though perhaps only through an accident of grammar), and so I wanted nothing to do with Syriac literature. I would find something else on which to do my dissertation.
Then came the Spring of 1986.
I was teaching advanced Hebrew, and I had decided to take the class through the book of Judges. As we read along, I noticed something odd about Judges 3:10:
The Spirit of Yahweh came upon Caleb's younger brother...
In English, this passage from Judges doesn't appear startling, but in Hebrew something strange leapt out at me: "came upon" was a third person FEMININE verb, indicating it's subject "Spirit" was being understood as a feminine noun. Hebrew is not like Aramaic in its use of the word "spirit". While the word is exclusively feminine in Aramaic, in Hebrew it is sometimes masculine. Therefore, the question that came to mind was why had the author of Judges chosen here to make the Spirit of Yahweh feminine, when he could just as easily have made it masculine? Oh well.
I just shrugged my shoulders and went on, not overly concerned. Occasionally, I thought, one finds something inexplicable in the Bible: no big deal. But then came Judges 6:34. Again, "Spirit of Yahweh" was feminine.
At this point I decided to consult the concordance. Much to my surprise, every occurrence of "Spirit of Yahweh" in Judges is feminine. As I pondered that, I recalled Genesis 1:2, the first occurrence of "Spirit of God" in the Bible, and realized to my shock that it too is feminine.
Back to the concordance. Out of 84 OT uses of the word "spirit", in contexts traditionally assumed to be references to the Holy Spirit, 75 times it is either explicitly feminine or indeterminable (due to lack of a verb or adjective). Only nine times can "spirit" be construed as masculine, and in those cases it is unclear that it is a reference to God's Holy Spirit anyway. (Please see Appendix 3 for a complete list and detailed discussion of the usages.)
The New Testament references to the Holy Spirit are not helpful for conclusively deciding on the gender of the Holy Spirit, since "spirit" in Greek is neuter, and so is referred to as "it" by the New Testament writers.
The conclusion of all this is that our traditional assumption of a masculine Spirit is questionable; in fact, the evidence seems overwhelming that the Spirit should be viewed as "She", which does seem to make sense, since the other two members of the Godhead are labeled "Father" and "Son".
What are the theological implications of a feminine Holy Spirit? There are four:
A feminine Holy Spirit clarifies how women can also be said to be created in the "image of God". It has long been recognized that he Godhead must include some feminine aspects, since Genesis 1:26-27 explicitly states that both men and women were created in God's image.
A feminine Holy Spirit explains the identity of the personified wisdom in Proverbs 8:12-31:
I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear Yahweh is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth.
I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
Yahweh possessed me at the beginning of his work,
before his deeds of old;
I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning,
before the world began.
Where there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
before the hills, I was given birth,
before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon
on the face of the deep,
when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind....
Some commentators have tried to tie this personification of wisdom to the idea of Christ as divine "Word" [Gk. logos]. Unfortunately for this theory, the genders of the words in question get in the way. The gender of the word "wisdom" is feminine, and is therefore personified as a woman. This makes a direct identification of "wisdom" with "Christ" virtually impossible.
Other commentators have pictured "wisdom" as a created being, like an angel; better have been those who argue that the personification of wisdom in Proverbs 8 is simply a literary device, without objective reality.
However, if the Holy Spirit is feminine, then the identification is relatively easy: Genesis 1:2 pictures the Spirit of God hovering over the deep, active in creating the world, just as Proverbs describes. Both the Old and New Testament connect the idea of teaching and imparting wisdom with the function of the Holy Spirit (Ex. 31:3; 35:31; Acts 6:3; Ephesians 1:17; Luke 12:12; and John 14:25-26).
The third benefit of recognizing the femininity of the Holy Spirit is that it explains the subservient role that the Spirit plays. The Bible seems to indicate that the Spirit does not speak for itself or about itself; rather the Spirit only speaks what it hears. The Spirit is said to have come into the world to glorify Christ (See John 16:13-14 and Acts 13:2). In contrast, it should be noted that the Scripture represents both the Father and Son speaking from and of themselves.
Finally, a feminine Holy Spirit, with a Father and Son as the rest of the Trinity, may help explain why the family is the basic unit of human society.