In Reply to: Re: Keeping it simple posted by CB on April 26, 2010 at 22:21:16:
CB you say:
My opinion on this matter is based on scripture study and prayer.
Sorry...but this reminds me a bit of my TF-times...when people were asked by leaders, whether they were sure, that such and such was the will of God:..."well...we prayed about it"...and who in TF didn't know their Bible ; )
Of course the whole subject is dead serious...as apparent in the suidicial tendancies of many a homosexual...I am grieved about that, as I am grieved about anyone committing suicide...seeing no way out
further you say:
It doesn't make me angry that other people, such as yourself, Farmer & Pastor Don, have a very different opinion. I only chose to speak up every once in a while on this topic to remind people that intelligent, Bible-believing Christians can and do disagree on things which are not fundamental to the gospels or to faith in Jesus Christ.
I am glad, you're not angry with me & I know you're very intelligent and I have no doubt scores of homosexuals, as I happen to know some superficially, but that much I do know...but if anything I was saddened upon reading your post...it grieved me to read, that you consider Mel White's outline as sufficient enough...apparently...I don't...simplicity has also it's drawbacks (besides the positive side)
Romans 16:18 KJV
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Romans 16:19 KJV
For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good , and simple concerning evil.
Romans 12:8 KJV
Or he that exhorteth , on exhortation: he that giveth , let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth , with diligence; he that sheweth mercy , with cheerfulness.
2 Corinthians 1:12 KJV
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Read 2 Corinthians 11 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
TFers also were deceived by simple argumentation of Berg (once he was pro-homosexuality...later against!!!)...his argumentation was "biblical"...insomuch as he used the Bible
For construction and life is the standard formula:...if the basis is not very sound and strong...then better not building on it...I don't trust too "simple"/loose"/quickly-finished constructions...there is something about being "fundamental"...the fundament being Christ...the apostles and the prophets according to the Word of God...if it can't be concluded from there I don't trust it...
I have no problems discussing or arguing pro homosexuals and their civil rights etc....it's another thing of homosexuals in the church...at least if they consider it all nice and "normal"...then the pedophile is also normal (as a matter of fact, from what I gathered recently...scientists are beginning to consider it as a grave "mental" sickness...or what??)...any fornicator, adulterer is then likewise justified...because he just happens to do, what comes "naturally" to him/her...we're then just on the road of anomianism and Mel White pretty much argues along that line (Anti-leviticus etc.)...as long as it happens to be love...the way I understand him...Berg constructed FFing as being highly altruistic..."pure love"...no selfishness seemed to be involved in the beginning...how do you ,CB, argue against FFing??What verses show you, that it is not appropiate??
On top of it male/rectum penetration I would consider harmful to the internals/tissues...not meant for it...
Also I happen to know only homosexuals, who started out as hetero/bisexuals...although the homosexual only seems to exist...I don't know of none personally...I know of a transsexual...who has a daughter...so that poor daughter would then have two "mums"
Another thing debatable is about the scripture talking of Sodom having it easier in the days of the White throne judgement (my take)...they didn't have Jesus appearing to them then with acts of mercy ....compared with Capernaum etc....we could talk about that too....but to belittle what the scripture pretty plainly says about sexual orientation and procreation is beyond me (as Mel White is apparently doing it.../he can't take anymore the coined term: God created in the beginning Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve....no point there??...a whole lot...which he misses)...and that's where people's choice enters in...
I just pick here for lack of time some parts of his file:
He writes:
Consider this single Bible passage that was used for centuries to condemn masturbation:
"He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also" (Genesis 38:9-10).
My comment:
The context makes it clear, why God is displeased with Onan...
As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate.
My comment:
Pretty bold claim...what is "exact" to suffice him???...I used that as an excuse as a teenager, because for the very most times I understood people's intentions very much...but sometimes I wanted to play "smart" and pull the "what is exactly"-card...I mean there is in physics and in language too an unsharpness...you can often use and overuse...
He further writes:
Leviticus 18:6 reads.....and it has nothing to do with sex....
my comment:
if it's so obvious (not to me!!)...why doesn't he prove it?...he doesn't...in fact he contradicts himself...since he talks about masturbation...and that has got nothing to do with sex??
M.W.:
Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers.
My comment: is that so??? just by memory a few examples:
Leviticus 19:18 KJV
Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Acts 15:20 KJV
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Read Acts 15 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Acts 15:29 KJV
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well .
compare:
Genesis 9:4 KJV
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat .
Leviticus 17:12 KJV
Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
Read Leviticus 17 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
Leviticus 17:14 KJV
For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off .
Leviticus 18:8 KJV
The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover : it is thy father's nakedness.
Read Leviticus 18 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
1 Corinthians 5:1 KJV
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife
His study of Sodom is anything but complete...this is not the way to do it...I am really sad/mad about that...the right way to do it is to use all the relevant passages comparing it...using the language tools/potentials as well...plus some ancient commentaries, plus historic/archeaological facts...Mel White is just scratching the surface....but I haven't time to do it for him...
but I did a super thorough...I am not intending to pride myself...but I can easily challenge Bible-readers who claim divorce and remarriage is allowed...I wanted to know...it related to me and I did a very thorough study...for I didn't want the devil tell me...oh, you are an adulterer!!..are you sure, you go to heaven???That is a battle...I know...that's why there are plenty of verses about fear and trembling and holding on and overcoming...why are they there, if it were an easy/"fleshing out"- road...I know it's only by HIS grace sustaining me and works should proof it...what "fruit of the womb"...children... can homosexuals in their "marriage" have???...it's godly and work to raise them...
I am willing to listen to you CB and willing to read very good Biblestudies...but they have to be better than Mel White's...hopefully...please post them...but please do the digging/posting...as much as I did, wanting to know...whether Mt. 5:32 and Mt. 19:9 constitute really the divorce and remarriage exceptions.
I wish HIS very best on your journey
Gen 10:19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.
Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it [was] well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, [even] as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
Gen 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched [his] tent toward Sodom.
Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Gen 14:2 [That these] made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
Gen 14:8 And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same [is] Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;
Gen 14:10 And the vale of Siddim [was full of] slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
Gen 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that [were] with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which [is] the king's dale.
Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Gen 18:16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing [them] rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Gen 19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
Deu 29:23 [And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt, [and] burning, [that] it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
Deu 32:32 For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter:
Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Isa 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jer 49:18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.
Jer 50:40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.
Lam 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
Eze 16:46 And thine elder sister [is] Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, [is] Sodom and her daughters.
Eze 16:48 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then [will I bring again] the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Eze 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,
Amo 4:11 I have overthrown [some] of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Zep 2:9 Therefore [as] I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, [even] the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.