In Reply to: Re: dark side of Calvinism.... reposted posted by OT2 on May 13, 2010 at 13:05:16:
OT2...it's important to be more and more straight on that one...I have listened...read up on both sides(over many years & decades)...first OSAS through TF(that acronym is also used in non-religious context ; ) ) I am not appearing here as a teacher, for my studies are way from complete, but I am getting there I hope/suppose, snailspeed.I am therefore aware of the pitfalls of OSAS...but the OSAS-opponents are sometimes "militantly"/illogically wrong as well...just a quick proof of that by what I mean:
To say there was never an example of onces saved always saved is wrong IMO...why? The saved sinner on the cross, defending Jesus...that was "HIS" work so to speak, being defended by one poor sinner...and you could say also his /the sinners last good work...both...mingled/caused by with faith...it kind of "depends", what time is left before death...more time seems to make it "more dangerous" to have faith defended.If you look at Peter:
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
That was a big inspiration for me after TF...conversion/repentance even in discipleship...chances to be forgiven...having the Lord even intervening for you...what a comfort that must have been to Peter and HE appeared to him especially also...
If you look at 1.Cor. 5 it looks like Paul is somewhat confident, that that person will get spiritually saved on the day of HIS return and his perverted "love-deed" judged while here on earth...destruction of the flesh can mean death to me or very grave sickness???
At least it doesn't say, that salvation is impossible...that is sometimes the impression you get from non-OSAS people...the extreme ones...which tends to drift off in a "works-salvation". I am kind of saying, there seems to me a danger on both ends???
To be fair, one has to say, that a good many evangelicals believe in OSAS (not just TF, as you know), among them a good many Baptists and also the Darby-brethren and the latter are ardent opponents of the Calvinists (limited atonement point etc.)
I have searched the web for a long period about that subject, yesterday I came across a new one...his testimony is kind of
inspiring to me...he also had some time "questioning" the Lord...what I don't like about his argumentation...he goes by "feelings"
he says, that in this time of opposition to God...he feels he could have no way be saved...well, why doesn't he consider the possibility, that God knew that in HIS wisdom...giving him the time to come @ later?...Paul persecuted the church...I know, that God knew, he could be converted.
I guess, God doesn't want to have bad fruits...or a barren earth... from Mt.13 to the epistles it's obvious, that HE wants good results
and I personally know, that anominianism is wrong...somebody who's come to the Lord Jesus for salvation should hate lieing,
stealing...murdering anyway ( people include suicide here)...and the whole sexual offence-section...obviously including idolatry...love of the world/money/covetousness in it's many forms...however, how many can say that they have achieved?...If the Lord came now overnight...how many would be found wanting??
That's why I think, one must continously stay in a repentant mood/fear of God...convicted by scripture...fellowshipping/not to think one is strong enough by onesself...only if the church one goes to, is helplessly errant...a look into the first chapters of Revelation can help to compare, where the own church could be at...and in need of repentance as well.
I often said that TF reminds me of Thyatira and the so called prophetess Jezebel/Zerby...history repeats itself...gnostics at that time gave the early Christians a hard time...There is an noOSAS-preacher at google-video-section and I stopped listening to him..too fast and solely audio in the beginning and then he went on to say, how he thinks the early Christians were so different...true...iniquity abounds more and more...although history just seems to repeat itself also and many of todays sins/errors you find already in the early church, therefore I
can't go along, that all were so true to nonOSAS truth in the early days...libertinism you find already then...so why are some people get so heated up/"inflated"?...that's what I "hate" about such a debate...it's not who's right, but what's right for the help of the fellowbrethren and some argumentation is just either not enough or laden with emotions...this puts me usually off.
As I said, I can see strong arguments from both sides and if you look at the quote of Philippians 1...there were Christians...namely those of Philippi...where Paul was very confident...about the Christians in Corinth he seemed less confident ; ) Therefore I'd say...it doesn't make sense to alarm the people of Philippi, that their salvation is in danger...at the same time it'd be wrong to encourage the
evil-doers at Corinth...like I said...there are two sides to the whole agenda
1Cr 5:1 ¶ It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Cr 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
1Cr 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and [that] I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest [there be] debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2Cr 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phl 1:3 ¶ I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
Phl 1:4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
Phl 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Phl 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
Phl 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Phl 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;
Phl 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
.
1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
(no repentance...same true also in rev. during the wrath of God)