In Reply to: Re: The Bible, Luther, Calvin, etc posted by mir on May 18, 2010 at 10:13:10:
Like OT2 also said I like your calm presentation of your thoughts and views...
I didn't study Calvin's thoughts yet...but did some research in church-history...I am pretty certain, that Calvin was influenced by Luther...the "reform-movement" (wasn't only Luther)...and of course the main influence stems from Augustine anyway....so all that is still RCC to the bone...as far as election/predestination is concerned.
I have biggest trouble with limited atonement...there's a difference for me between having paid for all (God wants all to be saved) and the "effectual salvation"...leading to "rapture"/1.resurrection...but may be that's what some/all mean??
He atoned for all...the price HE paid is enough for all
I believe too to have been dead in sin, but not so dead, that you cannot hear the voice of God(and Jesus)...like Lazarus...meaning not dead/soulless like a stone...there's some difference I think to be made.
Perseverance of the saints is all good and well, but some say Lord, Lord and are not doing what HE said..I think it was McDowell whose book I read once about these perplexing problems...he has the same stance I have gotten a bit prior to reading his book...I came to think, that some merely "think of having a relationship with Jesus"...it takes repentance anyway...and I think not even Luther is very strong on that...so that some only "know HIM distantly"
Unconditional election
There is some problem with it, the way I've seen it portrayed by many and which I was keen to believe before also in TF
that is elected before the foundation of the world
But it says in Eph 1:4 in HIM ...en autoo...that's the whole theme in Eph. 1 in HIM , all through HIM and by HIM it says elsewhere....some translations seem to suggest, through HIM, by HIM...which can lead to totally different views (that is e.g the Luther 1914 version...used also by TF)
I leave it at that:..church the rib (first part of HIM...taken out by the Father...last creation "Eve"/6th day...the church)...the real Eve...the bride...for which he left heaven...father and mother (Eph. 5)
So in HIM I am elected...I am drawn by the truth John 6:44,45...taught by HIM/God the Father that is...for in HIM I believed, before I even heard about and understood Jesus.
So I think we can come to Jesus since the preaching of the truth...the Word etc....and then discovering, that that the Word was first with God and then dwelt among us...Jesus.
Frankly I have a problem understanding...how one can become un-born again...again...people say...I can leave the hand of Jesus...but in John 10:28 it says that no man can plug them out of my hand...HE is not robbed...I belong to HIM...and how can I rob HIM of myself or you of yourself etc...sounds strange to me.
As far as perseverance is concerned...one should notice, that...from all I checked so far...in the standard salvation verses John 3: 36, 6:47...believing is not in the punctuated tense form of the Aorist, but in the ptp participle present-tense...meaning a continuation of faith is necessary...
But from my word studies I came to the conclusion, tha faith is also a gift of God...so real children continuosly repent, are sorry...want to learn...obey and my take...are helped to persevere...visible also...sonner or later by the good fruits and not by mounting up wickedness.
Therefore I think the real children of God in TF should really repent and get out...for a change...a good one...
Funny though, that most think to know, where Berg went/is...now...hell...etc...could be...but I don't know, whether he didn't repent with his last breath...or just shortly before dieing...no one noticing it...that be a lot of mercy...I realise...
But I normally don't speculate about such matters...Christ judging all that.