In Reply to: Re: Persecution: Interview with David Limbaugh posted by ray on November 28, 2003 at 11:34:21:
Ray,
Please see my bracketed comments below your statements.
You wrote:
"i think you will be "hard pressed" to find anything in scripture that paralells the current penchant for equating culture war w/ biblical discipleship of that fellow who came into an oppressively occupied country, w/ egegious denial of religious liberty, and numerous affronts to israel's worship, and lived his life in reference to another kingdom."
[Huh? I think you are confusing issues, Ray. What does "cultural war and Biblical discipleship have to do with Limbaugh's book? This is about how Christians are being persecuted in the U.S. by liberals and their allies in the judiciary and legislature. The magazine article you refer to is attempting to dismiss religious persecution in this country by comparing it with more repressive actions in other countries. I think whoever wrote that piece is deluded. That's like telling a mugging victim, "Hey, quit complaining...that mugger only took $5 from you! You haven't been mugged unless they take a couple hundred!"
Put yourself in the shoes of some of these cases Limbaugh describes, and then let's talk about whether or not you were a victim of religious persecution. How would you feel if you were fired from your job because you invited a coworker to church? How would you feel if you were fired for wearing a little crucifix? What if your little boy came home from elementary school in tears, because the administration told him he couldn't give his classmates pencils that said "Jesus Loves You"? (This occured at an Easter party. What on earth do they think Easter is all about?)]
"i would agree that there is a cultural shift away from traditional judeochristian values in this country, much like that of europe last century. efforts to fight that in the political arena are just that...political. that is not biblical "contending for the faith"
as you call it. (see jude 3 for context.)"
[I just read chapter 3 of Jude. I haven't taken "contending for the faith" out of context. So if a U.S. citizen has had his or her religious rights violated, you think they should lie down and be a good little doormat?
If you think Christians shouldn't use constitutional law to defend their religious liberties, you won't find support from Apostle Paul. In the book of Acts, Paul used his dual Jewish/Roman citizenship to both preach the gospel to fellow Jews and to defend himself against the Romans when they tried to arrest him.
Acts 22:3 KJV) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Okay, first he has told fellow Jews that he's one of them. Now later on in this chapter, he tells the Romans...
Acts 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.
27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.
29 Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.
The above verses make it very clear that Apostle Paul, one of the greatest early church leaders was not averse to using his civil rights to defend himself from religious persecution. If it was good enough for early Christians, it's good enough for 21st Century Christians!]
"nor does placing monuments in public places amount to discipling anyone."
[I never said that placing monuments in public places was discipling anyone. I did assert, however, that placing such monuments is not a violation of the 1st amendment's establishment of religion clause.]
"my point is that comparing this cultural shift to the suffering in the sudan, or indonesia, saudi, etc. is american selfcenteredness. and the politization of the gospel is the thing i find no support for in scripture."
[Sounds like you're calling victims of religious persecution self-centered if they happen to be American. Obviously, you haven't read Limbaugh's book, because he never tries to compare the torture and massacre of Christians in the third world to the religious persecution described in his book. The enemies of Christianity have an agenda, and they will use the courts and politicians as a tool to achieve their goals. If U.s citizens who happen to be Christians use the civil laws to defend their religious liberties, that is not a "politization of the Gospel.]
"one can make a case on constitutional grounds, and defend the vision of the founding fathers, but it is really a stretch to say that this is dictated by the teachings of christ."
[No, it's not a stretch at all. I suggest you review Romans chapter 13, which links God with civil authority.]