In Reply to: logic, reason and "being convinced" posted by visitor on January 19, 2004 at 18:55:42:
No arrogance, dear visitor...just mighty deep...as a
matter of fact I have a university lecturebook about
the history of christian dogmatism where it mentions
that Jacob Arminius went kind of crazy about his work on predestination...it's the same Arminius
William MacDonald mentions in his book (I have it in the German translation) presumably called (retranslated) Save in God's hands...a good link
covering in depth that subject you'll find at:
www.LASTTRUMPET.com I guess the author must be
"Arminianist"...according to McDonald they're the ones who stress more the free will in the question of salvation, also that salvation is linked to
certain conditions...(certain similar thoughts you
find nowadays among the Methodists, Pentacostals
etc.)
On the other side we have the Calvinists (similar
thoughts within the Baptists...also brethren)...
Even Luther wrote a pamphlet I think it's called :
From the unfree will...& he said among all that he has written, its the one he treasured the most...
He expresses there the opinion, that God chose us & that there is not the tiniest amount of free decision in that regard on our side, no credit to
ourselves through agreeing on our side etc....it's
a gift...
Some Biblepassages Christians (or others) have to
"chew on" :
Besides of course Romans 9 [I am too lazy to copy the relevant parts ; ) ]
"No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
(IMO impossible to beat that verse...I had brethren
in churches trying desperately to get around that verse, to give man some credit...I didn't find their attempts convincing)
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." Titus 1:2
"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." Psalm 139: 16
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jer. 1:5
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.."
John 15:16
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 8:29,30
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.And,Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."2.Tim 2:19
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."
Ephesians 1: 5, 11
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The other side of the coin:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the
world." Rev. 13:8
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be
taken and destroyed.." 2.Peter 2: 12
"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Prov. 16:4
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these
things." Isaiah 45:7
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" Amos 3:6
"Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy." Isaiah 54:16
.................................................
And if that wouldn't be already enough it leads
necessarily to the question of how to interpret
that word aion (OT: olam)...eternity... (eternal punishment??)...why does it say from everlasting to everlasting (a period of time to a period of time??)...subject in itself...
Greetings!!!