In Reply to: Re@ answers to, can anyone relate? posted by Fred on April 02, 2004 at 06:56:54:
OK doubt time.
There’s something I don’t understand about one of the fundamentals of Christianity. Why did God require in the OT a sacrifice of an animal and then in the NT His Son?
If its grace & forgiveness that grants us reconciliation and salvation why does it need to be symbolised this way? Does it not get in the way of the real meaning especially in the OT? Couldn’t a profit have given a message and said, ‘It’s by grace folks, not by works’?
Quite an essential question, Fred!My first answer went off into cyberspace,..that silly touchpad ; ) now I shall make regularly use of the composer...
KJV Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
(By the way not to eat things knowingly with blood therein is still valid IMO for NT-times - Acts 15:20 - which some Christians dismiss, as they seem to like meat their way)
Hebrew :dam means blood, but also blood of wine, figuratively...
In times of the mosaic laws:
For some heavier sins, the offender had to "pay" with his own," immediate" death (shedding the offenders blood, so to speak)...
KJV Numbers 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
For lighter sins, the atonement was done through the shedding of the blood of "suitable, accepted" animals, who were supposed to be healthy animals.
KJV Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
But the endless slaughter is not really the purpose in the eyes of the Creator:
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1
(However, the point is, that no one can cleanse himself...the dirt has to be taken off by something cleaner)
KJV 1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
(You can "work" on the apparent/seeming contradiction, that for one thing, sacrificing is ordained for His people & here it could look like the "opposite"...)
We're at the verge of annual eastern/passover-time...Exodus 12...I always loved that symbol/analogy...the
deathangel passed by the houses/families of the Israelites, who had the doorposts marked/stained with the blood of the lamb...
The NT-analogy:
KJV Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,...
KJV Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Further parallels about the ultimate sacrifice:
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. (again it is argued, a seeming contradiction, should God - through Moses - not have required the
sacrifices......)
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
(comp. Hebrews 10:5....)
Not through our own righteousness, works, means & sacrifices:
5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?
6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.
10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.
12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. Psalm 49
Likewise:
KJV Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(The picture is, that we are in debt, in the minus, like an account....... & God is balancing it again, for-giving)
To all that, we'd add Isaiah 53, the detailed foretelling of HIS sacrifice, further John 6, the flesh & blood-sermon &
the last supper...(also the parallel of Abraham & Isaac)
KJV John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Sin, O. Greek: harmatia means to miss/loose something, also for a lack of knowledge, also to be in delusion about something, to miss a goal in the spiritual sense...
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(It's not too long ago, that by reading verse 25 , it dawned on me, that it's very well possible to interpret, that God wants (must!?) forgive us, as the planner of all things, He knew our shortcomings, but also our potential & had a plan to bring the best about....so it was His right, it was right, His righteousness to forgive us...even faith in Him was planned.....also :
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Rom 8 )
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
(John 12)
In that sense, "nature" (God through nature) teaches us the very same thing: not to abide alone, to live selfishly, but to give.....to be sacrificial.(FFing etc. is not meant!...although at the height of FFing I really thought so & let at that time my then Indian mate participate in FFing...well, she married a very rich Indian businessmen in the course of it...I could consider it a good outcome??!)
KJV Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(including the feast/holyday of passover!)
I guess it was one of the old (first?) letters of Berg about the Holy Spirit (a compilation??), where he said, that God
gives us first some toys & then the real things...I always figured that to be a fitting analogy...being His children to be educated in various steps...first the toy cars (or what are the girls playing with ???) & then the real ones...only when sufficient maturity is reached...you don't teach it all at once,... plus which archer hits immediately always the goal, the bull's eye....it takes practicing.....like in Christian life, you allowed to exercise:
KJV 1 Timothy 4:7 ..., and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
So the question is almost like: could there have been a better way to teach us??I believe that much in His perfection, wisdom, righteousness & love, that I am convinced, that we're really on the best way/path back to Him, really learning the needed lessons.
I think, that God is a very giving God & we're on the receiving end, but we're supposed to learn to pass on in faith that there is more & not to hang on so selfishly...to learn sacrifice, is to learn giving up something you like/love,
otherwise it wouldn't be really a sacrifice, also for-giving is really giving too(passing it on, after you got something), forgiving financial debts e.g.
heavy teaching of Jesus: Mt. 18:21....
That other nations practice various forms of sacrifices, underlines for me all the more the trustworthyness of the Bible, as that is also reported in the Bible even for the time before the mosaic law, as ray pointed out!!
(I remember in Nepal, how the Nepalis sprinkled around New Year the cars, trucks & buses with animal blood, to
"pacify" Kali, I think it was her??, in order to have not more bloodshed by means of traffic-accidents etc.)
What does it mean, it's all by grace?It just proves the good will of God toward us.He gives, we receive, we thank Him...Have you ever made a gift, which wasn't appreciated in the time given??May be the time was too early for a very precious gift, the recipient not mature enough yet?....
I think, that by all we're going through we learn depth, get a better "toiled/plowed heart",... one of my very favourite parables is that of the sower & the seed (just leaves me still a bit wondering about the weeds & the enemy...)
I guess, it takes time to toil, plow, throw away the stones etc....that's why I think that there is no need, in having a prophet declare, it's all by grace....& no sacrifice needed,... now I put words into your mouth...
(both is giving anyway.....by God in the first place!!)
Goal:
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Mt.23
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Mt.5
As Christ is the head & believers His body (Eph.5:23/ 1.Cor.12), it'd be interesting to draw analogies, what the blood all accomplishes in the physical realm, our bodies...I know of supplying the body with oxygen, getting rid of carbondioxyd & transporting all kinds of nutritions.....
On my composer it looked much neater though ; )