In Reply to: what Maria is toast! posted by lydia on June 03, 2004 at 11:44:34:
Hey, Lydia (and all):
The day before I left TF, I ran into a little old man who said that he had known David Berg, and that, because of what Fred Jordan had done, and because of other things Berg had in his life, that he understood the root of bitternees, and the sinful and profane life he now had.
I listened to him, arrogantly, and when he very humbly asked to pray for me, I agreed. He just asked, "Father, bless this young man's marriage, give him children, and DELIVER HIM FROM ANY FALSE WAY, in Jesus' name; Amen". i silently harumphed, and said, "Amen!"
That night, I intended to say a real fast prayer, and fall asleep, because the next day was a very important day, there at the World's Fair, in Spokane, WA.
GOd had other ideas. His presence came, but differently than ever before.
The VERY FIRST thing God showed me was that belief in eternal security (OSAS--"once saved always saved") was the very first trap I'd fallen into, and was the greatest reason I had stayed so long.
The reason I believed it AGAINST it (eternal security) was that the presence of God' Spirit came so strongly, along with the passage where Paul said, "Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men...we beseech (BEG!!!) you, be reconciled to God."
It was one of those experiences like Isaiah's or John's, where they said he felt so filthy, because God's holy presence made them feel like they wanted and deserved to die, from the contrast.
That "terror of the Lord" remained, until I begin to accept what God was revealing to me, and repented and cried out for forgiveness, then it was gentler than any mother loving her infant.
From dusk to dawn, the Holy Spirit kept me in the New Testament, and FIRST showed me the verses Joel Wordsworth had called "the doubtful verses about once-saved-always-saved". On one of his teaching tapes, Joel said this clearly. I found them; they are there in Scripture.
Then beginning with Mt 5:28, He led me again through the ENTIRE New Testament, through such passages as 2Pe 2, 2Cor 11, etc., etc., with truth AGAINST Berg in every Gospel, and every Epistle, and ESPECIALLY in Revelation, where Jezebel "taught and seduced servants of Jesus to commit fornication, and to offer sacrifice to idols", adn and where He said, "...and I will kill her, and those with her, UNLESS...:
My wife, my stepson and I left the next day (7/4/74!). My son Tony was conceived that week, right after we left!
It was a kind of like Paul's "no MAN taught me the Gospel" comment.
I never knew that any other interpretation EXISTED, even historically--after getting out I learned that Luther DID NOT teach OSAS, that that BEGAN when, IMO, Calvin brought the philospohy of determinism to the Scriptures.
Determinism (today's version) is a philosophical syllogism that argues that an uninterruptable stream of cause-and-effect stayed in effect after the Big Bang, and that, if God exists, he/it exists DEISTICALLY, not THEISTICALLY, because that would allow Him to interrupt things with stuff like miracles, salvation, healings, gifts of th Spirit, etc, AND WOULD NECESSITATE THE EXISTENCE OF FREE WILL, which every atheist is sure CANNOT exist.
Funny thing; you shouldn't be able to trust ANYTHING a brain poduced by mere time and chance could produce--i.e.: if evolution's true, how can a good atheist trust this randomly produced gob of matter, which has supposedly given him this philosophical CERTAINTY against God's existence? Hmmm.
God is sovereign, but He created REAL free will, in both angels, and in Adam and Eve.
I believe the fall cursed every atom of the entire limitless universe, and that, at the time of the New Heaven and New Earth, Jesus will "change His grip", and entropy itself will be no more, along with sin itself.
I believe in more of a "candidacy", regarding, say, Pharaoh, Judas, the Antichrist etc.
I cannot believe that ANY baby was created by God with the express deterministic purpose of going ultimately to Hell, or that God is willing that ANY should perish. People judge THEMSELVES "unworthy of eternal life".
I believe that "candidacy" includes me, and God's foreknowledge does NOT force His absolute determinism of our salvation. I believe grace CAN be resisted, and that it can also be obeyed.
IMO, Calvin's deterministic teaching about uninterruptable grace is false. It is NOT a basis for lack of fellowship, for me; though.
I think mere arguments about it generate more heat than light; usually--I don't argue about it.
I believe that God does completely predetermine many things, but by His nature cannot break His promises, and that MOST of the time He does NOT invade the free will He has given everyone. I believe that, like King David and Bathsheba's baby, that saved people will go where the baby went (Heaven), and that God alone determines the "age of accountability", and that the organically insane,the retarded, and others are genuinely innocent, and go to heaven as well.
Calvinism asserts that God, and this means the God Who spared MY soul, is willing that MOST people perish, and has irretrievably determined that they will, and that the "elect" can live any way they wish--that would HAVE to include Berg, et al. I can't buy that.
My flesh HOPES he is now burning in hell. Then I reconsider. He UNQUESTIONABLY deserves to be there, and Maria DESERVES to receive "strong delusion" and Hell as well.
But then, again so do I.
I don't think Hell/the Lake of Fire is actual "eternal oxygenation of the soul", although Jesus did talk about both soul and body being destroyed there. And I CERTAINLY don't believe in Berg's LYING VISION in "The Green Door", or whatever that detestable Mo' Letter was.
I believe, at this time, that those eternally lost will be eternally isolated with a perfect memory of what could have been, an eternal "quarantine", if you will, while the redeemed will have "every tear wiped away", and will have the blessing of eternal forgetfulness in the New Heaven and the New Earth.
OSAS/TULIP served the Dutch Reformed conquerors of the South African blacks well, and there exist historical facts about other abuses of this doctrinal, as well. Berg wasn't the first and he certainly won't be the last ; I'm sad to say: "Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being themselves deceived"; no?
I grew up around oil company atheists as an expatriate American kid in South America, rejected the Gospel at least half a dozen times in High School, and again as many times in college, and got what was left--Eastern Religion, the occult, and demonically empowered psychic crap, and other demonically orchestrated and controlled "halucinations" projected upon my sensory awareness.
I got saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit in Brownsville, by myself, walking around doing night-time security, many months AFTER I joined.
It was an inarguable experience, with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
I later chose Berg's doctrine over what I read many times in Scripture, and even gave a false prophecy about Oplexicon, BEFORE I had read the letter--that makes me a false prophet, like DB, or at least someone who became will to believe every spirit. I did it in ignorance and unbelief. God spared me. I did not deserve it.
But I'm not here to argue OSAS; to me that's kind of like, with the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil, and without it they DON'T.
Or, IMO it's like saying "come to Jesus, live like Hell, and STILL expect Heaven".
Functionally, it's pretty similar (DAMNED after receiving, and then ejecting Christ, or never having "actually been saved", receiving strong delusion, and ending up in Hell).
Whatever cult leaders' final eternal state, the judgement comes AFTER death (Heb 9:27), and I don't believe that God EVER shows us who the "walking dead" are, so-to-speak.
Like you, Lydia, I believe that the 2Thes verses do apply to individuals, as well as being a prophecy about the worldwide delusion about the actual Antichrist.
I believe that human agency (Heb 6 & 10) is NOT SENT to minister to certain reprobates (whom only God knows) after a point, but that, like the thief on the cross, there is a chance, for cult members AND LEADERS AS WELL, right up to their last breath. Pharaoh hardened his heart to the point where God alllowed it to STAY hard; in effect, hardening it Himself.
Letting go of "the pleasure in unrighteousness, and rejection of the love of the truth" is the hard part; the miracle. I channeled demons, to others' hurt, both before and during my membership in TF.
I've HAD to forgive, to the point where I WANTED to forgive, and it took a very long time. If you don't, they get to repeat the offense every time you recall it, in a sense, and you're forced to carry "acid", or spiritual poison in your soul, and that can make you very ill, physically, spiritually, socially; EVERY way.
Like EBW, that makes me worry about SGAs a lot, and pray for them.
Because God exists, NO ONE gets away with anything, except that the most unfair thing that EVER happened is that ALL sin separated Jesus from the Father, Jesus experienced the ULTIMATE unfairness, and it's TOTALLY unfair that "a wretch like me" gets to actually swap my filth for His glory!!! It makes me weep!!!
I've wept for grief, and now I weep for joy!
I am so glad y'all are out, too! Jesus does free the prisoners.
Gotta go--this "Viejo Pedoso" (Old Fart) has got to get back to his studies. I'm working on a Masters in Healthcare Admin. Please pray for me!
Thanks, and may God richly bless you.