Jules, an A* for knowing your verses (a shinerprice could be discussed ; ) ) I understand though BBC, we often quote things which seem enough for our liking for the time & purpose being...although I personally tend to quote directly via software, “out of fear” ; ) someone like you could prove me wrong...seriously, I am of the opinion, if I go on record, I might as well get the wording as literal as possible ....however it seems from the OT-quotes in the NT, that hardly everything can be superliteral either, maybe also rather quoted from the greek Septuagint...may be it didn’t bother them at that time much either, as they didn’t have always the “scrolls” with them ????
KJV 2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
“Here is a question better suited to Journeys, but what happened to the "spirit of love"? Why are Bible Based Christians so much about damnation and judgement and "the weapons of our warfare"?”
Well, as usual, I read your posts with great interest & true, that post belongs more on journeys, but maybe you can pull the SGAcard & we are “allowed” to stay on soapbox (hope I don’t slip...) ...quite a difficult, deep post altogether!!!
First of all, who is a Christian??Many people/professors teach Bible & aren’t even believers, they are biblebased in their teachings, yet not believing.Europe is quite full of them.
So if someone is a Christian, he’s “naturally” Biblebased, that’s where his faith comes from.
However, is every believer also a disciple?
KJV Acts 11:26 . And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Disciplestandard was very high, we know that even from what TF said and as a matter of fact, it was cause for concern & worry after I left, namely, did I forsake my calling etc.
I know Catholics e.g. can be or were quite strong on damnation & hellfire...but how much were they believers & Christians(disciples)? I am not so clear, whom you exactly have in mind.As you know, TF kind of “morphed” from the message of Jeremiah/California sinks into the ocean etc.preaching group into a more “sweet love of God” preaching one...
I am convinced, as someone who had joined 76, that it’s rather right, to adhere to a
“minimum” of repentance-preaching:
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2
For me that’s the standard, after all, repenting is not necessarily a crawling on your knees, but a metanoia, a reflecting, thinking towards the right way.
Why TF e.g. didn’t practice the baptizing anymore, especially in the newer, 3rd World countries, I don’t know (reason given was, it’s more important, to be baptized with the Holy Ghost)
So to me, TF left quite a bit that preaching of damnation (judgement!...what’s wrong with having a message of a final judgement?); when I left, everything for the public was quite sugarcoated, actually not even bitter at the core.
Weapons of our warfare are not carnal...wish the crusaders had had that in mind...
Apparently not...this is quite emphasised by any charismatic group, so it’s not even
Restricted to TF.
“I did a great deal of personal witnessing during my time in the Family and my time as a christian, and the ability to empathise and articulate god's deep concern for each individual person despite any faults they have won a lot more "souls" (and it wasn't just the "Jesus Come Into My Heart" crap prayer) than the hellfire and "OT prophet" routine.”
again the “problem” of who is a christian & doesn’t he stay one? It’s the osas-problem, once saved always saved, covered by quite a few books & websites...by the way, that seems to be the TF viewpoint...opposed are the “Arminianists”, who consider it possible, to loose your salvation (Hebrews 6 & John 15 as the most critical chapters, I suppose, which personally gave me quite some “headaches” 9 years ago)...so you “were” a Christian?
The question of apostasy is a rather old one...Paul was considered an apostate to the jewish faith & until today Jews don’t take it light, if someone of their family turns Christian.
In the early centuries AC, in the heavy persecutions, some christians/believers denied their faith & when they survived & the persecution was somewhat over, the various churches had to decide, whether to take them back in or not...there were various decisions regarding that.
For me the denial of Peter & Jesus taking him back in was always such a picture of forgiveness.Aren’t we all denying the faith somewhat, somewhere at some time?
I think I read it on movingonorg, a publication of TF, where they confessed of making the mistake of leaving the teens, the SGAs not the choice, whether they wanted to really follow the Lord, how they understand it.This fear of TF – somewhat understandable – of loosing no
“little sheep” to the wolves, the system, created quite a “cruel machinery” of trying to beat the
rebelling ones into shape, pulling some lame childcorrection-verses, I assume.
TF realised, that you don’t make automatically fulltime disciples out of children, only because they heard this & that in TF...while I was still in TF, the sons of Samuel were given as a bad example, offsprings of a powerful prophet:
KJV 1 Samuel 8:3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
In other words a “good daddy” doesn’t necessarily guarantee, that the child walks in those steps. (However, I don’t mean that to apply to TF, because: it was right, that the teens rebelled against a form of believesystem, which really doesn’t stand for my kind of Christianity...I am saying in general, what also TF agreed to later, you don’t have automatically, second generation-missionaries - there are examples to it, however it doesn’t seem to be automatic)
If you read Acts 8 about Simon the sorcerer, you know, that he even “believed” and got baptized...the Holy Ghost though he thought to have to spend money on, to receive it & give it to others...” a bit mixed up” his ideas, so how much had he believed in the first place???So what is a real believer, a real disciple, a Christian???!!!
God’s deep concern, as you IMO rightfully call it, is really shown in sending His son,
who taught exactly the forgiveness – despite any faults – you mentioned.So receiving Him in your heart, after repentance/metanoia...reflecting on the errors,sins through a prayer, pardon me, is not crap...on the contrary, for me it was the most beautiful thing that happened in my life & I could add, several very beautiful things happened in my life...still that is the top...this is IMO the heureka (like heuristics....discovering/finding)-experience many FGs had either before meeting TF or through them.
“I am very grateful that my father was not overtly religious and joined the family more for a sense of belonging (he was only 17 and a runaway from an abusive home) than for any revelation of religious eureka.”
You know your father well enough to say so, but many people I knew joined, because they had found Jesus...I can’t generalise my experiences, but it was kind of TF-standard, that before joining it had to be made sure, that the person had received Jesus & the Holy Spirit, even if I now contend, that the repentencepart & the baptizing got much overlooked in TF.
“Also a question better suited for the Journey's board, but I have wondered this recently: Do you exer christians see those who have moved on from christianity as "backsliders"? Do you see exer atheists and agnostics as "having not received the love of the truth"? “
An atheist by wordanalysis is a non/without-God thinker...since I am not always thinking about God, does that make me an atheist?The atheist can hardly claim, that there is no God...
I have not heard of any good attempt to prove the nonexistence of God.I heard of Gödel’s
prove of God...I have it in German loaded down from the internet, you might find it in English.Some could be atheists, because they hate God & want to “hurt Him” by their denial,
actually I don’t know too much of them, but I always wondered, how on earth they figured it out, that things evolved by itself, my brain is too little for that.
An agnostic has not (certain)knowledge...well, that applies to about all of us, I figure.
My brother in law is one, a physicist.God could be & could not be, how should he know?!
But some don’t want to know, I assume.
So once people “shifted” from TF, IMO it doesn’t mean they left the big heroic only Christian
Organisation there is, much has been written about, how little of christian faith is left in TF.
In other words, it could be, that people out of TF really need time to “rewire”, to find out, what’s right & wrong in terms of Christianity...also, if the “wrong Christianity”, TF-style, caused lots of hurts, it’s kind of understandable, to want, for the time being, little to do with it in general.
About the backslider Demas it says in the Bible, that he not only left Paul – others did as well, because of some disagreements – but that he loved the world.
To be honest, I never could take, whether before TF, while in or after, too much of a craving of people for the world & it’s supposed supergoodies...I can understand to be tempted by it, but to be overwhelmed by it, I can’t...since the visivble is temporarily...so if that’s all what people think we got???That’s too little IMO.
So may be those people you have in mind should tell me, how great they consider this world to be & that it’s the only place and the only life we have and that’s it & that there never will be a balancing judgment for all the injustices suffered here.(One of the biggest perpetrators:
False churches, I’d agree).So the big crime-boys really got it made???
How much truth did they have, what did they reject?It could be, that some were “just members”, but unbelievers...I can’t really see, how you can “loose Jesus”, I am not of the Arminianists kind yet, can’t think of it being right, although there are quite strong arguments about it...so what should I think of any of the unbelievers: I’d say, I wished they could see
beyond the bad examples & get to know the blessings, which makes everything else little in comparison...it almost amounts to “pity”...but I know the same feeling prevails on the side of the atheists, who pity the ”poor christians”.
As far as your last question is concerned: even Jesus wasn’t always so patient with His disciples, but seemed sometimes astonished at them being slow to understand:
KJV Mark 9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? Mark 8
KJV Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
(From that point of view, many, if not all of us are truly Agnostics!!)
To me it seems, many teachers loose their patience, when they have to explain after the nth time something fairly basic.To beginners you’re naturally sweet, like one should – natural inclination – be especially sweet to innocent children e.g. ....
May be it’s a common problem?????