In Reply to: Re: On faith and lack of faith posted by mark on January 19, 2006 at 08:31:10:
Skep AND Mark:
Hey! I hope you don't mind if I respond to BOTH of you in the same post!
Skep:
Your thanks to your respondents is very gracious! Thank you, as well, that you said you would continue to consider the points that were made. Please forgive me for anything perceived as abrasive—I did mean it in love—to me it’s like trying to quickly warn others about a turn in the road with a dangerous obstacle they haven’t seen yet; I promise.
I am all for kindness of all kinds. And, I especially appreciate well thought out arguments; in fact I major on them, as you can probably tell.
As to what you said about “dismiss[ing] other beliefs and only examine things (like what we have been talking about) from the Christian perspective” not being sufficient for you; believe me, I do understand.
My early (and pre-TF) thought life involved first being a thoroughgoing atheist who believed a priori in evolution, and THEN the study and practice of Hatha, Raja, Siddha, Bhakti, and Kundalini Yoga, as well as Transcendental Meditation and Silva Mind Control. Are you familiar with them, and, if so, to what degree; please?
Prior to my involvement with those spiritual practices which proved to be dependable and “on-demand”, to use an Internet information term, I had exhausted and was unavoidably forced to reject the undependable logic of rationalist/materialist atheism, giving me understanding of what Farmer mentioned about Laws of Thermodynamics and other logical barriers to credence in the logically weak so-called “theory” of evolution.
At the time I began searching for any spiritual reality at all, I had become, philosophically, at least, a convinced nihilist: I believed, in a blind kind of “there are absolutely no absolutes” manner, that no overarching explanatory belief system COULD even exist.
At that stage of instability, I got into the other things—in fact I recruited for them. My “demonstrations DID NOT WORK ONLY around real, born-again Christians, whom I literally hated at the time. Being around them was like having someone turn off the “on-loan” power switch on my psychic/Yogic power.
I had experienced projection of pranhic heat energy by chanting “Om”, experienced “satsang” on-demand in the presence of Yogis and gurus and Hindu talismans, and other things I know now were demonically-controlled and empowered projections by demons into my conscious awareness.
If you’ve done more than explore the belief system I’m talking about intellectually, rather than experientially, you’ll understand what I’m talking about, and I’ll gladly discuss these things with you.
Being “a baby” á la Berg, has connotations of infantilizing oneself and making it possible for others to subjugate me, in my past, so now, I’m for being “fully persuaded in [my] own mind”, “trying the spirits”, and so on, as a thinking Christian. And, I am all for the scientific method, and a posteriori contemplation and extrapolation of understanding from actual data.
We all have presuppositions—“which are actually true?” is what I ask myself and others.
In response to other things you allege, I must say that mankind does not KNOW any infinite sets, in this manner, and can only extrapolate in FINITE sets, apart from the purely hypothetical, and possibility is not the same as probability.
Possibility is not the same as probability, which describes a mathematical function. Possibility and chance are synonymous, and neither has any creative power, nor describes any discernible force at all.
The difference, there, IS, hypothetically, an Infinite set, but possibility is only built on fantasy; PROBABILITY is built on observation within actual EMPIRICAL knowledge, not the “high thoughts and vain imaginations exalting themselves against the knowledge of God” of science done badly; I’ve observed.
Please prove me different if you disagree—it should prove an interesting read; Bro’.
I love your last comment! I similarly believe that Col 1:17 indicate that Christ’s own power upholds all sub-atomic, as well as interstellar, and ant other, measurable forces.
Mark:
Your experience sounds a little more like mine, concerning the Hindi and Buddhistic belief systems, and so forth, if Skep’s “examinations” have only been at the depth I’m presuming from his wording.
Have you actually consciously and willingly invoked the beings described in Hindu and Buddhist writings? They are called “deva”, or “devata”, and I’ve know them personally, and experienced their “powers-on-loan” as well, and want NO further contact with, or emptying the mind submission to them ever again; believe me.
When you write that: “Studying the martial arts (Especially Aikido), some of the other religions, and avenues of thot that are out there, have always led me back to the true reality of the simple good news of the Grace and Mercy God has toward us in Jesus Christ by His”, that does mean you have forsaken the occult stuff I’ve described; does it not?
Otherwise, could we please discuss it?
Both Hinduism and Buddhism indicate that you ARE God, but redefined as an infinite but IMPERSONAL GodNESS, so-to-speak, and with an “amnesia” removable only invoking the names of “you-know-who”, who can supposedly remove it and give you their 2 Cor 11 “enlightenment".
Didn’t you already read that false promise in Genesis Chapter 3; Bro’? Consider:
“Ye shall not surely die” vs. reincarnation/transmigration of the soul until a “Ye shall be as gods” yogic enlightenment of “Brahman Atman”, or, like the Beatle sang, “free[dom] from rebirth” through “release from the Dharmic Wheel” though attainment of Zen enlightenment, whether through Hinayana or Mahayana Buddhism like Shinto, Nichiren Shoshu, or other degenerations historically caused by the inconsistencies in Buddhistic texts.
“Amnesia”? God knows that “ye shall be as gods”, and is somehow cheating you because He gave you REAL free will, and created ONE proof of it, and you’d throw that all away in a decision with eternal consequences? Really?
Siddhartha? He left his wife and four children to travel to Nepal, and then China—haven’t you followed enough spiritual dropouts? I have.
Bhodidharma came later (to China), and his beliefs plus the influences of Kung Fu Tsu (Confucius) and Lao Tse (Taoism) respectively produced Hinayana and Mahayana Buddhism.
Have you checked out all the BLACK ARTS available in Nepalese Buddhism? That’s where Siddhartha went FIRST! He was looking for a “New and Improved Hinduism”, because it had acquired so darn many deities over the years, and he just became the NEXT one—anyone who thinks Buddha is not DIRECTLY WORSHIPPED is a complete fool, the “8-fold Path” notwithstanding!!
I’ve practiced Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Shintoshi, Go Jo Ryu, and now Go Kan Ryu (I also boxed and wrestled at one time). I pursued YOGA, back in my late teens, BECAUSE “Chi development”, and “opening of the Chakras” were IDENTICAL—demonic power/experiences on-demand and on-loan—but the price was satanically inspired deception, and was a “gateway” to even heavier demonic experiences.
Aikido teaches one of the most powerful releases AVAILABLE of “Chi”, or “Ki”. I say it’s demonic—at least karatekas, and practitioners of other martial arts, ESPECIALLY Aikido, CANNOT express ANY “Chi” when I pray against it—prayer under my breath in Jesus’ name cuts off the power, every time, just like my experience with the on-campus Jesus Freaks I hated at the time.
I was standing outside an Aikido dojo waiting for a bus one time, and felt that nasty spirit and rebuked it, and, through their window, saw a really frantic reaction. I’ve also experienced some NON-demonic Jiu Jutsu and Aikido, but would NOT recommend its traditional practice. Good moves, but usually a BAD spirit, in my experience.
I am VERY encouraged for you, my dear brother, and pray with you that you remain with “the true reality of the simple good news of the Grace and Mercy God has toward us in Jesus Christ by His most miraculous Holy Spirit”, and do continue to NOT “believe every spirit”.
Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimerToo)