In Reply to: Keep it simple? posted by Pretender on January 31, 2006 at 15:29:53:
"Pretender" (again: appropriate "handle":
Brilliant. So, the obviously delusional should NOT be helped? Several people who have personal contact with him say he is in the advanced stages of alcohol addiction—you’re going to completely devalue EVERY kind of interventionist approach to people in this kind of condition?
Again: brilliant.
There are a few people that he is adversely affecting; they post as “Mad Dog Left”, “Daniel”, and a few others—maybe they’re drinking buddies?
They ACTUALLY join with Joel, and, sadly, so does Carmel, in believing that Berg is either still alive, and waiting in the wings to resume his “David” prophetic and kingly mantle, or that he’s dead, and there will be a Lazarus-type resurrection for the same reason.
When SEVERAL people are that delusional, the “probability” of it being an actual psychosis moves to a “vanishing probability”; or ZERO.
Then, it’s most likely what I already said it probably is, when I answered “FYI’s silly post, i.e.:
“…merely a stubborn refusal to give up the belief paradigm, in the ABSENCE of anything directly psychotic at all, learned in a sub-Christian cult…self-deluded by choice, and habitual drunkenness, plus arrested development resulting in unresolved cognitive dissonance...”
So, he does endanger himself, he is a drunk, and drunks do all sorts of damage before they die of substance abuse-related illnesses and complications (like Berg—must I point that out?)—have you been living in a cave, or something?
Intervention IS CALLED FOR, unwillingness to see that is willful ignorance on your part; IMO.
Some drunks are “harmless and sweet”; others are just “a mean drunk”. Both need the help of others; it is difficult, but worth it.
Who are you to disagree with that; please? And what, exactly, is your rationale; besides some BS about “self determination”?
Whatever the case, Joel’s choices irrefutably resulted in the death of his child—that enough “harm to others” for you?
Ergo, he can exert the same kind of horribly crippling influence on others similarly weak and susceptible to his “Berg Mini-Me” belief paradigm, and resulting social self-isolation, and despair, BECAUSE thinking and behaving like Berg IS EXTREMELY DESTRUCTIVE to anyone, or haven’t you learned that yet?
I urge you to seek out far more “reference points” than you already obviously have; you exhibit a vacuousness on the subject that I have rarely encountered, when trying to help fellow exers; which is why I’m here.
WHY do you have a problem with that? And YOU presume that you yourself are well-informed and OBJECTIVE on the subject? Please.
A baby about to stick a paper clip into an electrical outlet also appears “sweet and harmless”. Playing with matches around gasoline may appear non-destructive, up to the point of ignition. Duh. Nice argument there.
And, I am VERY GLAD that the people God did send, while I was in the cult, who spoke to me FOR GOD, though they themselves were imperfect humans, had the guts and the compassion to do so, even though I was an arrogant hard-ass, or at least apparently so, at the time.
How does that verse go, “oh fellow Christian”? “He that observeth the clouds shall not sow, and he that regardeth the wind shall not reap”, or something like that?
The “hokey stereotypical PC anti-Christian stereotypical attack” is what I usually get from people exhibiting the superficiality that you evidently do by what you write—IMO, your position in ridiculous and untenable, by ANY rational consideration—you seem to merely enjoy expressing yourself for self-expression’s sake, not to make a valid and/or reasonable point—just what IS your point; by the way?
What you say, is, IMO, “hokey…” and so on.
So, in answer, I am characterizing you; point blank. I stand by what I say. BECAUSE I did apply it to myself, some 31 years ago, now, I have already fulfilled your “eating” metaphor.
I have no need to defend myself, I just want to help others—your characterization of me as “a bit thin-skinned, overly sensitive and defensive” is a baseless projection of your own making, and simply untrue—I have gained some self-knowledge over the years; thanks, and I’m fairly secure in it—how do you POSSIBLY get any of that from what I actually wrote?
Non-sequitur, and ad hominem.
IMO, your questions are spurious and superficial, and extremely SELF-centered; perhaps YOU should begin to care more for others, and actually DO something, rather than pontificate here; uselessly?
Here’s a metaphor: I know CPR. I see someone unconscious. They are unable to ask for help. I let them die SOLELY for that reason. What is WRONG with this picture? Duh.
Does that answer your absurdly-applied allusion to the wonderfully helpful “Serenity Prayer” which has actually HELPED so many people, but only when people try to help others change for the better?
Self-determination MY ASS (again; IMO—your’re not “a bit thin-skinned, overly sensitive and defensive”, yourself; are you? If so, please don't take offense ;-)).
If Joel is “just” a drunk, yes, he does need to come to the end of himself. Till that point, help from others, even an “open rebuke [which] is better than a secret love” (which is apparently YOUR unassailable credo, IMO--a "secret love"--useless) is called for; even when the first attempt at intervention doesn’t apparently work—what 12-Step program are YOU referring to; please?
We obviously disagree; I fail to comprehend your justification for what appears to me to be a silly and useless position to take.
From WHERE do you get that—too much personal pain and an inability to connect? DO you ACTUALLY feel others’ pain? What actually demonstrates that; please?
I suggest that you continue your search for MANY more meaningful “reference points”, such as learning the difference between sympathy and actual empathy, which prompts ACTION in others’ interest. Duh.
It seems to me that the problem of self-importance is much more yours than mine; although inter-comparisons are, Biblically, usually extremely foolish.
What is the comparator “gold standard”; you? Please.
Do you actually KNOW AND APPLY “the program language used by people with addiction & dependency issues”; YOURSELF?
By what you write, you appear to me to be a mere theoretician; kind of a secular “faith without works” tripper.
Did you know the 12-Step stuff began with a Christian group called the Oxford Group, who led the guy that wrote the AA book to Christ, and actually reached out to him IN THE EXACT MANNER I AM ATTEMPTING WITH JOEL, got him saved, sober and discipled and actually helping others without any drivel about “self determination”, and had a regular success rate with others in the high 80th percentile?
Did you know that same rate, now, is in the single digits?
Curious. Self-importance issues aside, is this Carol, by any chance? She was BIG on her interpretation of “self determination”, as well. Hmmm.
Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimerToo)
P.S. It’s called “delivering your soul”, and it is called for, even when not initially successful. Duh. You’re objecting to it, frankly, doesn’t matter.