In Reply to: Re: symbolism posted by Ancaru on February 21, 2006 at 10:42:46:
Ancaru:
I have some questions regarding your post. Your quotes are within quotation marks. Mine follw each quote:
“After spending innumerable hours in conversation with an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, as well as attending several Jewish learning conferences, it is my firm belief that one cannot fully grasp and understand Judaism and come away with their Christian faith intact. “
Qs: Innumerable hours? Could you possibly make a more accurate estimate? Actual hours, days, weeks, months or years? Which “Orthodox” Jewish Rabbi—a Lubavecher, or regular “Orthodox”? A Kabalist or non-Kabalist? Which “Jewish” learning conferences, and which branch (of the more than 6 that exist); Orthodox, Reform, Liberal—which? Please establish that, first, so I might be made able to follow how you are assuming that Christianity is NOT the fulfillment of over 300 OT prophecies about Jesus Christ, the JEWISH Messiah.
Why did you assume that there was no valid explanation to be taken from extant Old and New Testament manuscripts, and their study; for instance, was the mere fact of translation adequate for your huge assumption (and here you gave no particular instances to prove your point)?
Are you already an expert on higher form criticism of extant manuscript studies, and do you adhere to peer-reviewed journals on this or any other related subject?
What authenticatable reasons did the Orthodox Rabbi cite that made you form your “firm belief” specifically; please? Who else would see them as reasonable?
“My original motive for deliving into Judaism was to better understand Christianity. Unlike Protestant Christianity which relies entirely on the texts (multiple translations, no less), half of Judaism is the Talmud -- the oral tradition -- which supports the Torah. I wanted to imbibe of that tradition. (Catholicism also relies on oral tradition, however, I felt that Judaism would get me to the root of Christianity faster than Catholicism would).”
Again: your statements about tradition pose an even greater problem than the one I just stated, and again beg the question: which tradition, and what branch or form of Judaism? Also, they also immediately beg another related question: Which DOCUMENTS SUBSTANTIATE those “traditions”—Jews are NOT in the habit, historically, of depending on unreliable “word of mouth” transmission of beliefs important to them (in fact they have NEVER DONE SO)—ever heard of the two historic groups, the “Talmudists”, or the “Massoretes”?
Please—do at least a Google Search on them, and read about how they preserved texts, in a manner unprecedented in world archeological history.
“I do understand that there are Messianic Jews. However, I cannot understand how, if they have studied the texts, they are able to reconcile the Torah and Talmud with New Testament teachings.“
Please explain, but FROM THE TEXTS. Which ones; by the way? I have studied them; I do not merely claim to have done. Have you actually done so, or are you merely reiterating someone else's actually educated question?
“The belief system of Christianity is in direct opposition to the belief system of Judaism. As an example: Christianity acknowledges that we are all sinners and must have a savior. Judaism believes that we (or at least Jews, converts to Judaism and non-jews who have done the best they could given the information they had) are automatically granted a place in Heaven.”
“In fact, Judaism has no hell. And if there is no hell, no need for a savior in the Christian sense.”
Some groups purporting to embody “Judaism” DO, while some in fact, do not. And the same goes for a belief in a “Messiah”.
Either differentiate here, or admit either ignorance, or pseudo-scholar fraud; please.
“Jews cannot accept Christianity's claim of Christ's divinity because the Torah itself does not allow for the possibility of God having a "son" or an offshoot of Godness. (One fundamental precepts of Judaism is in the "oneness" or "unity" of God). In fact, Orthodox Jews have a difficult time understanding Christianity's claim of monotheism. Christians themselves often don't understand their own claim of monotheism and for the most part are unnable to explain the doctrine of the trinity in a way that abides with the rest of the Biblical texts.“
Again, only “some Jews” cannot . And, OT prophecies predicted this, as well as the good news of salvation going to the Gentiles, AFTER most Jews rejected it. And, Jesus pointed out that the OT texts had some “difficult to understand” passages pointing to Messiah as God, and so forth. Your disagreement here doesn’t negate what is obviously in the OT Scripture.
“This is besides many of the other issues surrounding the Jewish Messiah. “
Which other issues, please?
“That said, I am not Jewish, however I can appreciate the fact that Jews do not believe in taking anything by faith and as such many devote the majority of their waking hours to the study of Torah in an attempt to understand exactly what is meant by the words that have been passed down.”
Your statement alleging that “the fact that Jews do not believe in taking anything by faith” is used in an inconsistent manner, and is apparently intended to make an “un-makable” point: Jews’ faith comes FROM Scripture, and always has, the existence of various non-believing sects CALLED “Jewish” notwithstanding.
Hebrew is LEARNABLE, even by non-Jews; Kabalistic “secrecy” has no place in authentic document-based ANCIENT Jewry, nor authentic document-based CURRENT Jewry.
ORIGINAL Jewry DOES involve inviting others to read and understand the OT as God’s message to the WORLD—it’s EVANGELISTIC and has ALWAYS been that way, and CONTINUES into the New Testament. Your argument is baseless BECAUSE it is demonstrably historically untrue. Changing the "labels" and calling "Jewish", groups which are, according to extant manuscripts, definitionally NOT JEWISH does not, in fact, strengthen your untenable argument.
“They have an advantage in that they are studying the texts in their own language and therefore understand the nuances of the words in addition to the literal meanings. They also have the written words of Rabbis from the last several thousand years who add their opinions on difficult to understand passages.“
Already answered.
Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimerToo)
P.S. Ancaru (that’s some fanatical radical feminists’ handle, like “women good—men BAD”; right? ;-) ). Seriously—will you bother answering this, or predictably beg off?