In Reply to: Re: on moral relativism posted by Acheick on March 14, 2006 at 13:04:36:
How do you justify condemning their religion as a whole in light of your own personal experience?"
>Did I say I condemn their religion?
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Well, in one post you said Islam was not a religion but a politcal movement and referred to writers that condemn the religion, and I believe you called it a bogus one? (or that may have been OT2) So when I am not concrete with exact words, would you say that you basicaly do not condemn the religion and you see it as a legitimate religion with the exception of its fanatics?
>The spiritual world is very real and that's why I believe Christianity to be the best religion
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I tend to agree that the principles of Christianity are some of the best I have seen as far as how Jesus led his life and that is why I could understand the "Christian Atheist" as a legitimate stance.
>if you really understand it and don't use it for your ends, a la Berg and many others. After all, there are plenty of evil men in the world to subvert and take advantage of anythiing they can get their hands on.
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Agreed! And that is what I am talking about from the beginning of this thread, the misapplications that occur in any religion and how principles that are good can be lived regardless of religion. I base that on universal goods in the major religions vs. the destructive habits of some of any religions followers.
>The problem with Islam is that it is a theocracy, not a religion and I believe the whole thing to be bogus. Still, it is their right to follow if they want, as long as it is not hurtful to others.
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I don't agree here. It is one of the world's major religions and unfortunately right now has some of the worst fanatics, widespread, that are following certain clerics and imams rather than the basic good tenants of mainstream Muslims.
>I can't understand how you can compare that to Christianity. Christians moved into the 21st century, radical Islamists insist upon moving back into what they think is their purer days of the 7th century caliphate and the law of Sharia.
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I compare it to Christianity in some of it's principles and as you state here yourself, I don't like what "radical" cult-like Islamists are doing in reverting to ancient repressive ways. I like what the Syrian woman currently in controversy with Islam has been saying. Though Syrian born she is not Islamic and lives in the USA. I think for changes to occur in the religion it has to come from within Islam though. I don't like how women live in most Islamic countries which is similar to the conditions for women in America about 100 yrs ago or so.
Some Islamic countries are not repressive like that though. I hate ideals such as women as property and people as slaves which was once endorsed by many Christians a century or so ago. Islam is not a religion I would choose. But there are many Islamists that are not for a return to the dark ages.
> This is the problem I have with radical Islam and the powers that be that are controlling the masses, i.e., as we have witnessed with suicide bombings around the world, burning of embassies over cartoons, the declaration to destroy the west as we know it, etc. I don't know about you, but I condemn those actions.
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I have already stated quite clearly that I find those acts abhorrent. But those acts are not carried out by the majority of Islamic people around the world.
>What I see the need for is to decry these actions and help them move into the 21st century The "peaceful" muslims didn't like it, but they were powerless to it - that is what I saw.
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I agree that I hate to see countries go backwards like that as it happened in Iran under the Ayatollah Khomeini. Where the hard question comes in, and this could get political, is who should draw the lines? I think the change that is needed needs to come from within the Islamic countries and communities and that may take 100 more years.
>Who really undersatnds the Muslim religion? You quote a few things that sound like you got them off a website.
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Regarding the five pillars of Islam, yes I did get that off a website which is focused on educating people about Islamic Faith from a mainstream and not radical perspective. I don't believe that most Islamists want repressive rule but they are going to have to be the ones to do the lion's share of changing the things they don't like, imo.
>I've read and experienced much more than this. A lot depends on which Inman people are listening to, also. What needs to happen is these respected clerics who believe Islam to be peaceful and do not subscribe to the Jihadists viewpoint to be much more outspoken and try and turn the tide. I don't see that happening though. I wish it were. I wish I saw Muslims demonstrating in the streets against violence and beheadings and the killing of innocents.
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Yes, I would like to see that too! And I agree that the militant factions have too much control in many areas of the world. I am sure it is harder to protest because it doesn't simply cost a person a night in jail.
> I do see a valient effort though in Iraq which is why the Jihadists are trying with everything they have to make sure it fails. I wish them well and I hope and pray they can pull it off for the sake of the people that do want to live in peace. I'm afraid the world, though, has lost its grit and that worries me.
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I do see your concerns and share the same ones. I don't know that I believe the world has lost it's grit though. I think change is something that occurs at varying paces in different cultures. Imagine Amish people going to physicians and using electricity, modern education, driving cars. The government does not force them to change their culture. They are different from cults in that they have no hidden agendas. And nowadays many of them allow their youth, encourage their youth to spend a few years out in the real world to decide if they want to be traditional Amish or go on with mainstream American life. Of course, by the laws of the USA, Amish or not, people are free at age 18 to leave and do what they want to.
PLEASE don't take this as me comparing the basically peaceful Amish who are regressive in life style with fanatics that put death contracts out on those that criticise their lifestyle!
>Also you say that there is a backlash against Muslims much the same as they have a supposed backlash against Christians and Jews.
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Well, that wasn't exactly my point. It was more about not outcasting people due to their religion. I don't compare the fanaticism of the one group with others. Some are clearly much more destructive.
> their religion teaches them that non-muslims (or even those they perceive as not following Islam) are destined for hell anyway.
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And are you saying many Christians do not believe that the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as THE son of God and only by salvation thru Christ can people be saved?
> Apparently, the Koran teaches that Allah has allowed for all these people to be born so they can fill up hell. Have you read that one?
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I haven't read that in the Koran and am not real familiar with it's text as a whole, but this sounds like the bible to me. After all, if only those who are saved by recognizing Jesus Christ as the son of God and as their personal savior will go to heaven, all others to hell, well there are verses christians use to say this from the bible. Again, any religion can be misapplied or be rigid according to the doctrines set by any given founder of a religion or leader of a cult.
So do you believe that all that don't believe in Christ as the son of God will go to hell? Or do you hold a more universalist view?
>Therefore, it means nothing to them to blow them up, not to mention the fact that they will get blessings for it. I don't see Christianity teaching that.
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I don't see most of the world's religions teaching that. I don't see Islam as mainstream teaching that, but I do see a rise in fanaticism and I am deeply disturbed and appalled at methods used in instances of terror, targeting innocent civilians and blowing themselves up for their God, according to their belief. I hate to see that. It is horrible. As the Syrian woman said, you don't see Jews going to Germany and blowing up children or civilians in suicide bombings.
It's horrible what is happening in Islam via fanatics. I hate it! But I don't condemn the whole religion or discount it or say it isn't legit or isn't a religion because of its fanatics.
>I loved the person I stayed with who was Muslim, but I despised the fact that she was a second wife and was one of the loneliest people I ever met. I hated the religion for what it does to women. Fault me for that, if you like, but not for being ignorant and hateful of nothing then just because.
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Seems there are other religions that allow for multiple wives. I worked in this country with a Nigerian man who worked as an R.N. here and he brought a second wife over to America. According to the customs of his tribe, even though in many ways he was acculturated to America, he still held to some customs like polygamy. It is not recognized here, but just as Saudi's can bring servants to accompany them to the USA, there are things I don't like but which are tolerated or ignored by our government because of the cultures the people come from. This second wife of the Nigerian was going to return to Nigeria as the R.N. intended to one day after saving up enough money to start a business there.
I know I would not like it. (to be a second wife in an arranged marriage.) That is another culture which is about a century or so behind.
>This also reminds me of Mormonism. Their prophet taught them that polygamy was scriptural. Then when it was outlawed in the states, they had to change their tune. But instead of coming out and saying they were wrong, they made some sort of Maria like statement - for the public they say one thing, but don't really denounce the practice as unGodly. So you have people still believing it's part of their religion and the problem continues.
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Well, I think the Mormon's have progressed from their founder as far as mainstream Mormon's go. They really do have monogamous relationships and encourage good work ethics and education for their youth. They don't cloister themselves unless they are a breakaway cult trying to get back to the basics, much the same as Islamic fanatics go back to repressive veil wearing women repressive ways. So while I have no tolerance for breakaway Mormon cults, I do think mainstream Mormonism has gained respect in society at large.
>Well - sorry for the length, but this is a deep subject with no easy answers.
I appreciate the discussion. The things I am saying don't give a very good description of how I personally view and think about things, and like I said we would agree on many things I am sure. But only so much can be said on a message board in one post.