In Reply to: Nice post posted by CB on September 21, 2006 at 20:48:58:
CB said:
"Really balanced and articulate. There's also the issue of trans-sexuality and inter-sexed individuals, where there is so obviously genetic and prenatal dispositions that have nothing to do with the choice of a lifestyle. Very devout Bible believers often assume that homosexuality is a choice because the Creator doesn't make mistakes. After all, it says in the Bible that God created "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
However, trans-sexual and inter-sexed people are clearly "mistakes" in ways that can be measured and tested physiologically and psychologically. There are even some neural markers that identify garden variety gay males, commonly referred to as "fags." I don't really believe such people are true mistakes of nature, btw. I'm using that word in the context of creationist theology, where there is an assumption that the homosexuality reified in the Adam and Eve myth (of 6,000 B.C. Hittite origin) is the only plan for humanity "ordained" by the Creator-God who speaks through Jesus Christ. Trans-sexual and inter-sexed peoples are part of the natural order; to say they are not present in the human population or somehow unclean and to be shunned is to deny them a social existence. Isn't recognizing the dignity in other human beings as children of God deemed by some to be a basic human right? I have actually heard Bible believers say that such people do not exist, because God doesn't make mistakes. Well, now I'm at a loss for words and feeling a bit angry about how minority people get stimatized by majority people. So I'll sign out with a sound bite: We're here, we're queer, get over it.
_________________________________________________
CB/Carol:
You brought this all up, and responding to it is not preaching, it is discussion. Otherwise you were preaching in the first place.
Would you mind citing the actual studies of actual data on your opinions phrased as facts? Thanks. I’d appreciate it for the sake of both spiritual and scientific truth.
Firstly, there are no dually-functional hermaphrodites. That’s reserved for Annelida (worms, basically, to the non-bio student).
Also, although I know belief in creation is not required for an individual’s salvation, I have read where you claim to espouse actual Biblical Christianity, then a more simplistic “higher power” quasi-theology (like a 12-Stepper), and occasionally show you are a believer in rationalist/materialist/atheism-evolution. That confuses me. What do you actually believe?
I do not know of any intelligent scientifically minded Christians who buy into the idea that mutation does not even exist, simply because they have equated some kind of determinism with Biblical truth. I certainly don’t. Mutation at both the genetic and congenital level can account easily for so-called “intersexed” phenomena.
I see mutation as a result of the Fall, and of the double-curse on the earth after that, right after Adam and Eve fell, and when Cain killed Able. All free will stuff.
I am very sorry people calling themselves “Christians” have offended you. That’s very sad, and I hope you can forgive them. You’re not actually lambasting all “very devout Bible believers” because of those few people’s actions against you; are you? I’m sure you recognize that as illogical. That's like assuming all Christians are just like TFers.
And, as far as transsexuals are concerned, what actual data have you discovered, which the rest of us have not, which establishes that they are anything more than chemically and/or surgically altered true males and females pursuing homosexual acts? Please cite your sources. I’m talking actual science, not opinion; here. As far as physiological measurements, there are such things as shapes of pelvises and skulls (on the average, anyway), Barr bodies (which ONLY females have, and so forth) demo9nstrating femaleness. Anything else is a pseudo-scientific “myth”, and you claim to look down upon “myths".
I had a UT Med school adjunct prof specializing in the differences between males and females at the advanced human physiology level, and she said there are at least 17 such distinct differences known by human medicine. Who are you citing for your opinion? Any other actual clinical research MD/PhDs?
Recapping, I am a Bible-believing Christian. I understand the Fall. I can scientifically and philosophically justify why, as well as argue the lack of substance/evidence of rationalist/materialist/a-theism/anti-theism-evolution arguments, from astronomical facts all the way down to quantum physics and in regard to short-day creationism, and why I am compelled to believe that way.
I’m also quite familiar with Biblical archeology, and am quite aware of the Hittites, and so forth, as well as the constructs of liberal higher form criticism versus historic sound doctrine and exegesis/hermeneutics, which study I have personally pursued for over thirty years.
I am also quite expert in the rules of philosophical considerations about logic, and its appropriate use, and know the difference between opinion and fact. I am no neophyte in the things to which you give such easy and off-handed reference. That sort of thing intimidates some people; but not me.
As such, I find it offensive, as part of the group you are obviously mocking, to read your amazingly untrue (at least in my case) and caricatured characterizations; and I know that you know better.
That is quite unfair and rude of you, despite any personal persuasions of yours regarding science, religion and morality.
Please do not assume my stupidity based on any stereotyped prejudiced opinions you have developed for yourself about people in that said group.
I do not call people “fags”. I care for all people as those for whom Christ gave His life. They’re here, they may be “queer” (an historic slur co-opted by militant homosexuals and used repeatedly by them to “denature” the insult by reframing its contextual usage) for the time being by choice and habituation.
I know plenty of both male and female ex-gays (and/or ex-GLBTs) who now truly know and follow Christ, and who would adamantly disagree with you, and even beg you to be reconciled to God, because they are now His ambassadors for your sake.
Thanks for being at long last honest about your position on the matter. I will continue to pray for you, as I pray for all those who don’t really know the Lord yet AS Lord, and not just an imaginary Calvinistic savior, pretending to save then IN, but not FROM, their sins. That's NOT the real Jesus.
Jesus himself said that some people, by their own choice, were not children of God, but were “of their father the devil”. You quasi-theology does obviously disagree with that, and that’s a fact.
Trust is earned, in any community. So is dignity; in any community. Undignified acts will never truly earn that dignity. We all begin with inherent dignity as God’s creation; true enough. We all forsake it for sin, and self-aggrandizement (Romans 1). Becoming a son or daughter of God depends on what God’s Word says it does.
I understand that you are at a loss for words. I am sorry for your displaced anger, and wish you well with it; genuinely.
Perhaps we should discuss what you consider the “natural order”? I wouldn’t mind; given the time to do so. I’m sure we’re both pretty busy.
And, since you have cited the Bible so frequently, perhaps we should establish why you only believe it is a “myth”? I’ve definitely seen you say otherwise. Is it something you haven’t actually decided for yourself, yet?
I’m glad you are here. I am not glad that anyone is “queer”; though. I really hate that word, as well as all slurs against people for whom Christ died. Where there’s life there’s hope!
Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimerToo)