In Reply to: Re: The Bible, Luther, Calvin, etc posted by Farmer on May 18, 2010 at 12:18:22:
Like OT2 also said I like your calm presentation of your thoughts and views...
[Thanks, I am usually this way unless I get deeply irritated. :) ]
I didn't study Calvin's thoughts yet...but did some research in church-history...I am pretty certain, that Calvin was influenced by Luther...the "reform-movement" (wasn't only Luther)...and of course the main influence stems from Augustine anyway....so all that is still RCC to the bone...as far as election/predestination is concerned.
[There were problems in the church from the beginning. Consider Paul's letters to Corinthians and Galations...consider Jesus' letter to the churches in the Revelation to John. IMO Augustine got it mostly right. It doesn't matter that the RCC claims him. All true Christians were and are members of the universal church which is what catholic means.]
I have biggest trouble with limited atonement...there's a difference for me between having paid for all (God wants all to be saved) and the "effectual salvation"...leading to "rapture"/1.resurrection...but may be that's what some/all mean??
He atoned for all...the price HE paid is enough for all
[I will have to go into this at a later time. I'm beginning to prepare for a summer camp and don't have time to get into this one deeply.]
I believe too to have been dead in sin, but not so dead, that you cannot hear the voice of God(and Jesus)...like Lazarus...meaning not dead/soulless like a stone...there's some difference I think to be made.
[When Paul says that we were dead, I don't think that he means partially dead. Doesn't God bring the dead back to life? That's what God does with the spiritually dead.]
Perseverance of the saints is all good and well, but some say Lord, Lord and are not doing what HE said..I think it was McDowell whose book I read once about these perplexing problems...he has the same stance I have gotten a bit prior to reading his book...I came to think, that some merely "think of having a relationship with Jesus"...it takes repentance anyway...and I think not even Luther is very strong on that...so that some only "know HIM distantly"
[I agree with you on this one. Only God knows those who are truly His. It's not for us to judge -- wheat and weeds grow up together.]
Unconditional election
There is some problem with it, the way I've seen it portrayed by many and which I was keen to believe before also in TF
that is elected before the foundation of the world
[yes, that's right.]
But it says in Eph 1:4 in HIM ...en autoo...that's the whole theme in Eph. 1 in HIM , all through HIM and by HIM it says elsewhere....some translations seem to suggest, through HIM, by HIM...which can lead to totally different views (that is e.g the Luther 1914 version...used also by TF)
I leave it at that:..church the rib (first part of HIM...taken out by the Father...last creation "Eve"/6th day...the church)...the real Eve...the bride...for which he left heaven...father and mother (Eph. 5)
So in HIM I am elected...I am drawn by the truth John 6:44,45...taught by HIM/God the Father that is...for in HIM I believed, before I even heard about and understood Jesus.
So I think we can come to Jesus since the preaching of the truth...the Word etc....and then discovering, that that the Word was first with God and then dwelt among us...Jesus.
[I'm not sure that I completely followed you on the comments on Ephesians.]
Frankly I have a problem understanding...how one can become un-born again...again...people say...I can leave the hand of Jesus...but in John 10:28 it says that no man can plug them out of my hand...HE is not robbed...I belong to HIM...and how can I rob HIM of myself or you of yourself etc...sounds strange to me.
[I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Reformed Theology doesn't teach that one who is truly born into the family of God can become unborn. But we do not know who the elect are. That's only for God to know.]
As far as perseverance is concerned...one should notice, that...from all I checked so far...in the standard salvation verses John 3: 36, 6:47...believing is not in the punctuated tense form of the Aorist, but in the ptp participle present-tense...meaning a continuation of faith is necessary...
[It is important to continue in faith, but one can have slumps and doubts and problems in life. This can't be teaching that we can lose our salvation or we would have to ignore other important verses and passages in this regard. For example: the prodigal son or Jesus' prayer to the Father in John 17 re: those who the Father has given him and will give him. You would have to think that Peter lost his salvation when he denied Christ.]
But from my word studies I came to the conclusion, tha faith is also a gift of God...so real children continuosly repent, are sorry...want to learn...obey and my take...are helped to persevere...visible also...sonner or later by the good fruits and not by mounting up wickedness.
[Continued repentance is important and is taught in the Reformed church. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches this. But that doesn't mean that we are saved all over again every time we repent of a sin or sins. We are taught to confess our sins and that is good for our soul and our relationship with God. Are you familiar with sanctification? Sanctification is what is happening to the believer once he is in Christ.]
Therefore I think the real children of God in TF should really repent and get out...for a change...a good one...
[Absolutely!!!]
Funny though, that most think to know, where Berg went/is...now...hell...etc...could be...but I don't know, whether he didn't repent with his last breath...or just shortly before dieing...no one noticing it...that be a lot of mercy...I realise...
But I normally don't speculate about such matters...Christ judging all that.
[Yes, we don't know for certain what Berg did or didn't do before he died. I won't be able to respond for a few weeks. Thank you for your thoughts and views.]