In Reply to: Thanks for the response posted by Donny on November 15, 2002 at 08:59:44:
Glad you appreciated the quotes, though I am surprised that you considered those of Clement of Rome and Athanasius to be vague.
There's no denying that Irenaeus and the author of the Didache were still waiting for a future fulfillment of Mt. 24, etc. All I can really do here is to restate the fact that people of the same time period and similar spiritual stature disagreed with them. If the argument hasn't been conclusively won in 2000 years, I doubt you and I are going to settle it here, but I think it's still very useful to see that godly people, who take their faith seriously, can hold differing opinions on important subjects and not write each other off as heretics.
Gentry gives quite a bit of attention to Irenaeus in his book, particularly the quote from Irenaeus which is used to support a Domitian date for Revelation. I gave a summary in my discussion with Daniel ("the quote from Irenaeus" - Sept. 30, '02), along with some information to show that, while Irenaeus was much admired by early Christians, he was not infallible:
"for if it were necessary that his name
should be distinctly revealed in this
present time, it would have been announced
by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.
For *that* was seen no very long time since,
but almost in our day, towards the end of
Domitian's reign."
This ambiguous quote is THE ONLY BASIS for the A.D. 95-96 date Bible teachers use, whereas there are MANY strong reasons, from external historical sources and from the text of Revelation itself, to believe in an early (pre-A.D. 70) date for Revelation (It's past my bedtime now, but I can discuss them another time).
In the text quoted above, Irenaeus uses a Greek word that means both "that" and "he". If we're saying that "it" (the vision of the Revelation) was seen towards the end of Domitian's reign, then John would have been in his 90's when he was released from exile. But how could John have chased down a heretic on horseback, as Polycarp witnessed first-hand, at this age? On the other hand, if we take the meaning "he", we admit that John did live on into Domitian's reign, but he would have been in his 60's upon his release from Patmos, and would have lived long enough, as history says, to establish leadership in Ephesus and other areas, before his death.
Another problem is that, while there was a very great persecution of Christians during the last half of the A.D. 60's, there is almost none recorded under Domitian.
One more thing: Irenaeus is highly respected, but he wasn't always right. In the same writing, "Against Heresies", Irenaeus actually states that Jesus lived to be more than 40 years old - "Since there are 4 winds, there must be 4 gasps (decades)." According to Irenaeus, Jesus was still teaching in His 50's (2:22:5)!