In Reply to: my basis of understanding is posted by lydia on December 16, 2002 at 22:02:55:
Lydia, I don't have any major disagreements with what you say here: "I reject the concept of saying a simple prayer, and you are saved. In fact believing wasn't a necessary part of praying and the family told me just 'try it' I didn't have to believe it."
My experience was that salvation had been explained to me and I thought about it for a couple weeks and one night finally decided, "OK, I'll do it." No duck-your-head and repeat-after-me salvation prayer, but a very conscious effort to yield my life to God, to commit myself and follow through on my decision.
I also remember one brother in the Family talking to a non-receptive person who wanted nothing to do with Jesus. In the end, the brother said, "Can I pray for you?" The guy said "Sure," so the brother prayed, then said, "Repeat after me," and led him in a so-called sinner's prayer. When the guy realized what he was saying, he said indignantly, "Hey! You tricked me!" The brother later had a few doubts as to whether he should count that as a "soul saved" or not but felt he should since after all the guy had prayed the prayer.
I don't know which is sadder, that you never knew God in the Family, or that those of us who did were in such denial and so manipulated that we did things against our conscience. I think it's actually a sadder case for us, as you can legitimately say that those things were done before you became a Christian. It allows you to experience faith in a more pure sense, uncompromised by things you did in the group. So many of us do not have that situation, sad to say, and must try to make sense out of how we as Christians could be so deceived. I addressed that issue in my post below, actually.
You said, "If I so strongly believed that everything Berg said was the mouth of God, then of course as this verse shows, I was given over in strong delusion, I was surely damned. As the verse shows."
Yes, if that was your situation. But I also believed everything Berg said was from the mouth of God and I too was deluded, but I don't believe I was damned. Again, I beleive it's a case of 1Cor.3: the foundation remains. I later began to doubt Berg, then finally renounced him completely.
I do believe that some people can become so hardened that they literally have their consciences branded and renounce their relationship with the Lord, whether in word or deed, or in their heart. But I don't remember my conscience ever dying out. It was alive all those years, trapped and held down, and it later woke up and got me out of the cult.
Good verses from Jude, by the way. You're right - this is a complex issue and it's hard to make blanket statements. Thanks for explaining to me what you believe on these points.