In Reply to: Re: sounds like a mo letter too! give 'em hell, Joel's nuts and not home posted by FYI on January 30, 2006 at 15:43:18:
“FYI/who cares”:
So: you have elected to inform me, rather pompously, IMO, and say, at the same time, “who cares”? Am I correct?
Please—who or what do you not care about here? And form what vast ivory tower of intelligencia are you informing “poor little me”; example of cult-like ignorance that I am?
Nice approach—what possibly could your motivation be for expressing yourself in such a manner? Do you get away with it often?
I find your delivery a little rough; possibly ignorant, although I could only guess the reasons, since I do not know you--at first I thought I was on GeneXers, or MovingOn, and not Journeys. There are reasons for the attacks there; often very painful ones. I understand. Two of my three sisters were raped, as well as my niece, and my step-daughter was even raped by her own father. It was all outside of the cult, but that doesn’t change much.
Interesting "Subject" header. What was your intent, or motivation? Your self analysis of "crude" is certainly apropos; IMO. Sorry.
I am actually educated in the field you touch on. Seemingly you are portraying yourself as an expert (are you?). I have dealt with autistic, retarded and emotionally disturbed minors (which is not in Joel's apparent category, here), but also with adult psychotic indigents as a psychiatric professional, here in Houston at the Ben Taub General Hospital's Neuropsychiatric Center, where evaluation of these patients was never based on snap judgements such as it must inevitably be concluded that yours is, but on lengthy conversations with the entire mental healthcare team; confirmatory tentative diagnoses from all members helped to make the final diagnoses. Or didn't you know that?
Are you actually alleging that what I said was actually "like a Mo Letter, too!"? How very ignorant of you--I can conclude nothing else; honestly. How did you arrive at your conclusions?
Or, do you actually like making reactionary, and inflammatory insulting statements based on your own ignorance, immaturity, and lack of social development? That is immediately apparent, too--sorry--it does appear that way. Why the ad hominem attack on me, then the pseudo-recovery, and then the pretended expertise? And then, you cap it all off with spiritual superiority to someone you never met. Does that seem at all rational to you?
Really; now.
How much have you actually observed Joel? And, what were your exact observations, and how did you memorialize them--with a doctor's diagnosis? A nurse's diagnosis? A caseworkers diagnosis? Anything at all of an educated and trained and experienced professional nature? Hmmm—that kind of leads to a conclusion; albeit tentative.
The symptoms you mentioned can also be descriptive of hypomania, within bipolar mood disorder, they can be schizophreniform (not quite, but very much like schizophrenia), they can be part of a complex full-blown schizophrenic reality-break construct; it could even be a symptom of Major Depression (unipolar) with psychotic features.
Or, they can actually be within the parameters of the way I described them in my post to Joel: why couldn't they be? The Gospel can't be real? The warnings, and solutions, in Scripture, cannot be real, and helpful, and true, merely because you might have come out of an admittedly sub-Christian cult yourself? How could that possibly follow?
You couldn't possibly be sensitive enough to others' "Journeys" here on a chatboard by that name, namely mine, that you might assume that a phrase like "sounds like a Mo Letter" might be offensive? Or inaccurate and not helpful to anyone
Oh, yeah--it's PC to attack Christians--nobody else can be insulted like that; only the Bible-believing Christians. I forgot, on the Journeys board, here; sorry.
Interesting. Childish, but mildly interesting--not helpful to anyone, though; like I said.
Your admittedly crude comment does seem like that of a person with a "google search" fixation, and very little other actual data or experience; I'm afraid.
Actually, I did try to reach out to Joel another time, several times, and suggested he rule some of these things out (the things you and I are “discussing”), and contact some mental healthcare professionals (like myself, at one time in my career), and then try to address the spiritual truth of the matter, if that sometime non-hard-data DISCIPLINE could not really accurately describe or help. It most frequently cannot; you know. The mentally ill, especially here in Texas, get "revolving-doored" out back on the streets, here, in large and sad numbers—a lot of the homeless are psychotics of one degree or another.
I gave up on the psych job. I'm getting involved with something called "Church under the Bridge" here, now. The pastor's wife is alcoholic (recovering) and full-blown bipolar sufferer (just like my sister!), and has lived on the street (just like me!), so I'll be trying to help some more indigent psychotics, there; no doubt.
Got any suggestions; or are you just fluff; yourself?
Watchman had, according to another Houston area psych professional, a diagnosis of an actual physically measurable brain damage problem directly resultant from his "Victor Camp" experiences in TF--trauma like the control of cults can have very real psychotomimetic or fully psychotic effects on the human barin; that's in a lot of medical literature; I know. I've read a lot of it. Psychedelics were also called "psychotomimetic", even as far back as the '30s.
Oh, yeah—that doctor asked me to help Watchman. I was suicidal at the time, and couldn’t; though. I wish I could have.
The brain is a delicate organ, and it can get really sick. On that we agree; apparently. Diagnoses by actual professional can be extremely difficult, and maintenance is usually the only amelioration, even when heavy medication is involved. Or did you know that?
I've also seen Joel be very sensible, and not religiously delusional; even very kind and jovial.
One thing I have observed over the years is that some cult members leave sub-Christian cults, and abandon all spiritualities, whatsoever; I understand the reasons for doing so; usually a lot of pain and shame, and/or a very frightful cognitive dissonance they haven't been able to resolve at any given time; I know.
That does not ipso facto establish some kind of actual reality, or overarching hard data paradigm that no such spiritualities exist, or have value, or cannot "diagnose", if you will (or even if you don't will!) religious oddities. That’s called antisupernatutralism—currently very passé as a belief system; or didn’t you know?
The Soviets did assume so--they atheistically, and in a very pseudo-scientific way, sent non-atheists to the Gulag to die, or housed them with all other "psychotics: in insane asylums like the one in the old movie "Snakepit"; or worse.
I'd say that, with all due respect (of which you show very little, IMO), that the approach I used in my post to Joel was NOT such as you characterized it; it was the product of an attempted effort of communication with him in terms he can easily understand. It actually contradicts exactly on his level his religious delusion. And, I have had , actually, a pattern of trying to do so, in order to help him.
Who are you?
If the "religious language" offends you, that is actually your own problem; not mine.
In your last sentence, you flip over to the "very spiritual", pontificating about your vast knowledge of brain diseases. We actually ARE called to discern and help fallen fellow Christians--look it up in Galatians chapter 6; OK? And, especially, please apply verse three to yourself, as I will.
Your inferential, and again quite insulting and ignorant, accusation that I "pass judgement on his spiritual condition based on what he writes" is merely silly.
Please kindly grow up, little brother/sister; whomever.
Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimnerToo)