In Reply to: Re: Regarding out of body experiences posted by Observer on March 01, 2006 at 13:34:23:
Observer (and Zither):
I am a Christian survivor of a sub-Christian cult. When I feel that God wants me to, I do my best to share my experiences, in the best way I can.
On these TF exer boards, sometimes I am pigeon-holed, stereotyped, judged harshly, ranted and raved at, and so on; sometimes I am well-received.
But, as an ex-cultist, I must personally say that all my experiences are MY OWN, and not the product of mere imagination. I have had BOTH demonic experiences, as well as those given by the Holy Spirit, and the guidelines here are that written conversations are to be within an environment which is “…a safe, non-threatening environment for ex-members who still have faith—or are on a spiritual journey, unsure of what they believe.”
I appreciate that, and try to be sensitive to it, but you must also make room, yourself, for those who are sure of what they believe, as well; don’t you think?
I think that, as long as ALL parties involved are trying to help others to detox “from the spiritual atmosphere of The Family, wish to discuss spiritual and Biblical issues, including comparing genuine Christianity to heresies and spiritual abuse”, while engaging in “active dialogue”, while discussing Family doctrine and NOT “repeatedly arguing the same points”, and so on, and that prolongued discussions should be relegated to private emailed discussion”, we can have a fair and level palying field for discussions. I can certainly agree to that if you can.
Now, please allow me to RE-iterate what I meant to say; OK? I do not believe that all NDEs are demonic. My position, from experience, is that some are, while others are not, and can be classified as “of God”, or “NOT of-God”. I never said all were demonic.
Observer, you then related part of our discussion, and then called me “ready to call [your] experiences demonic”. That’s a little unfair: you previously said that some of your experiences were “dark’, and I was identifying with that, and then YOU gave a rather knee-jerk reaction of your own, by saying what you did regarding my own experience.
You really cannot have it both ways; can you?
None of your experiences are based on your possibly being deceived, while all of mine are, and I “probably” only got them out of a book? Really? Is that ACTUALLY the position you are taking in your post to Zither? If so, it is hypocritical, to say the least.
You really don’t sound THAT sincere, at least at first; here, honestly. It sounds like you’re mocking me; actually. I did go to the trouble of saying that it was a long story, involving not just myself.
Has your TF experience been influential in disbelieving Christian testimonies out-of-hand?
If so, I can empathize and sympathize; really. I almost lost my life in the cult due to authoritarian abuse, even if I AM “just” an FGA from long ago.
Post-TF, I had some intense struggles in my faith—the kind I had weren’t that God’s Word was ONLY the Bible--THAT'S what got me to leave in the first place.
I had come out of first atheism, and then the occult, Yoga, psychic experiences and studies, THEN TF, where I prayed to be saved ALL BY MYSELF, and did the same, asking Jesus to baptize me in the Holy Spirit, whatever that meant to Him.
My FIRST prayer to Him had been while into the spiritistic occult, and was from a list in my mind of so-called “Ascended Masters”, and I asked to please know Him for Who He REALLY was, because I didn’t really believe He was just another Guru. I subsequently rejected the Gospel when it was presented to me by regular campus Christians, totalling over a dozen times of refusing the Gospel.
What was left? The cult ran into me, ellicited mild interest on my part, learned my schedule, folloed me aroung and "love-bombed" me, and I dropped out--long story there, too. Please do not read anything in; thanks.
My biggest trial was believing that He stopped caring about me personally, when He “let” others treat me very badly; mostly, sad to say (especially AFTER TF!), this was by others I knew called themselves Christians.
So, if you have been in some “deep waters”, too; so have I. Actually, I am quite the expert on Spiritism, as well as other counterfeits and heresies, and almost 100% from PERSONAL experience; believe it or not.
Reiterating from my earlier posts, it is my personal EXPERIENCE and belief, that a person may have NDEs in the following manner:
1. A visitation to Heaven, where one meets Jesus Christ, is told they still have a purpose they must serve on Earth, and He sends them BACK into their body, and the “fruits” of it are a renewed and deepened love for Christ, for God’s Word, and for the fate of the lost without Christ. There are accounts of surviving near-deadly car accidents, being under water several minutes or even hours and surviving, and so on. I know SEVERAL people like this personally, and completely believe them. It ALWAYS either deepens the Christian faith of the person experiencing it, or brings the person experiencing it to salvation in Christ, after coming out of the experience. These are of God.
2. Kind of like of the Poltergeist movies variety, where malevolent forces pretend to be good and give the experience of the “tunnel of light”, the appearance of the “dear departed”, and presentation of a belief completely contrary to the Gospel, and so on—the whole schmere. Highly reported. Also highly commercialized—kind of the “household phrase” variety. Demonic. Duh. Also dumb and unoriginal, on the Devil’s part. These are either of the devil, actively, or are the product of massive exposure to this Point of View, plus narcotic narcosis plus anoxia, during difficult anesthesis. Both are completely unreliable.
3. A person who has actively rejected Christ, and has the experience of visiting Hell, and sees the agony of the eternal quarantine away from God, and others awaiting the Lake of Fire (final quarantine from ALL others, not actual "eternal oxygenation"), and is given a chance to reconsider their response to the Gospel in their lifetime, and then returns to their body to survive, usually, some physical kind of catastrophe. I am NOT talking here about a “Dante’s Inferno” type of experience, where “the devil rules in Hell, and the bad people do, too”, and all that BS. I believe that THAT is also a “demonically-controlled hallucination” taking place in the sensory awareness of the victim, and NOT a TRUE NDE/OBE. Quite a few non-Christian and/or actively anti-Christian NDE resources are at lead those honest enough to have started reporting more on what they call “distressful NDEs” which DO INCLUDE stories of encountering demonic beings, regardless of the experiencer’s non-belief prior to this in the existence of demons. It is actually very common; I am greatly surprised if you have not already run into these stories, as I have, if you truly have even a passing interest in the subject; really, Observer—are you only “observing” what you want to, or are you open to the experiences of others; even us nasty Bible-based Christians ;-) ?
So, I believe that the experiences that ACTUALLY ARE BONA FIDE NDEs/OBEs are of God--see varieties #1 #3 ONLY. The spirit really DID leave the body, the body without the spirit is, like I said, D-E-A-D; dead, according to Scripture, and God revived the person to either save them initially, or to comfort and strengthen them in their Christian walk.
#2 is within either the "of the devil" variety, or of the cunning craftiness of men, variety, ro of the fallen and evil religious imagination of man, including altered states of consciousness, auto-suggestion, narcotics plus anoxic euphoria during anesthesia, or of the direct demon-contact variety. Yes, a demon is allowed, usually by the person looking for the experiences outside of christ AFTER rejecting Him numerous times, to run the inside of your head, your sensory awareness, like a TV set picking up impulses on a particular chosen channel. Yo u kindof have to actually "ask for it"; and you will eventually get "answered"; sad to say.
I do recall that I DID categorically say that I believed in the experience that the Apostle Paul had, where he says he was “taken up to the third heaven…whether in or out of the body I know not”, and he was supposedly stoned “to death on several occasions.
Stating that obviously shows I do NOT believe that “all NDEs are of the devil”, and, frankly, your misquoting me here to another poster is somewhat suspicious; don’t you think?
Do you habitually unfairly “go after” Bible-believing Christians? If you are indeed a TF exer, which is obviously a sub-Christian cult, do you think it is reasonable to do so to people who were lied to and ripped off spiritually, BASED on a misinterpretation of historical Christianity, just like you were?
Does that make any sense to you? Why would you do that?
Here are just a couple of URLs on the subject (Christian POV):
http://www.probe.org/content/view/14/77/
What Happens After Death?
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nde.htm
Near Death Experiences (NDE) by Dan Corner
Feel free to email me, if you are interested, and please stop misquoting me, if you are doing it on purpose—it really seems like you are; sorry.
Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimerToo)