In Reply to: Re: To Farmer and OT2 posted by jo on September 29, 2006 at 19:02:15:
Jo, first of all, thank you for the dialogue...it's fairly difficult, because it's a subject I know being very dear to you.I had my difficulties telling my children no to certain things (e.g. computergames, which are in the majority pretty vile)...you feel awkward, but at the same time it's a must...I just listened to a discussion on the radio about how so many young kids go & drink themselves unconscious...there are laws which forbid to sell alcohol to youth younger than 16 for light alcohol...
still they're getting it, either they put pressure on the vendors or have other ways to procure it.
The therapist said, they're doing it most likely, because they have parents who are more & more insecure themselves, about themselves, their life & the future, who also don't have the strength to correct their children...out of concern...to really express, that you'r heavily concerned & also showing that with a "proverbial" hug etc.
Being a better example in your lifestyle & also having the courage to speak up seems to be some remedy here.
I talked before about relativism & individuality how it was super dear to me...I thought there were many roads to Rome...well, Rome is one thing, but actually (having been there) that's not what we mean as the "super goal" in life....may be you're very down to earth & couldn't care less what is after life...I had once a girlfriend while I was in TF...she said she didn't want to live forever...so my preaching to her seemed pretty much in vain & I was shocked, because I was very much in love with her.
The last thing I want to do now is scare you off journeys...as I said above in my post to Mike & OT2 I'd rather leave myself...because I am pretty alright the way it is & have my sources where I can draw from, learn...in a way my dependency from journeys, perceiving it as a blessing to read & also being understood have dwindled lately a bit.
I couldn't understand WC's argument, that setting up a Christian exfam.-board wouldn't be the solution either...I don't agree...non-(Christian)-believers would know, that they would hear/read the Christian persuasion there & they wouldn't have any excuse.
Here I obviously see your point & feel in a way sorry, cause it's a very fine line, us saying our Christian opinion & the preaching at, which is undesired here.
I really don't get the argument: you're saying, you don't correct/preach at us & vice versa we should apperently hold it with anyone here.May be,
judgement/attention of the WC etc. pending...
meaning, I don't want to offend the rules here, but definetely don't intend to be/become a manpleaser.
By the way the comparison with Taliban & Inquisition & the like is pretty far fetched, although naturally related...far fetched for my own position...you may be noticed, the pope wanted all the religions to renounce terrorism & violence in persuing their goals.
Some muslim leaders contended that that was pretty hypocritical of the catholic church in light of the past of that church.I'd say so too...I read a pretty detailed book about the inquisition last year & sad to say, the inquisition took also part in the protestant areas of Germany...it was a very bad time for Europe & even worldwide & people have
many reasons & rights to question the credibility of the big churches.
However, people tend to throw the baby (Jesus) out with the bathwater....even reading about the early churchfathers -second to 5th century - makes me wonder, how things went early haywire...it's only human, in a way & my detour via TF isn't any better...so how can I blame someone for his sins, when I was no better...I can only uphold the historical fact - although plenty people would differ here - that the apostles...Jesus...the early Christians led a different life.
If we only pick from the Gospel the message we personally prefer & have no problem with, we won't grow much spiritually.Like someone said, the branches, the leaves are cut by the husbandman, the wine grower...the branches are not asked, whether they agree to it.
Conviction, then repentance is something very "heavy" & IMO a dealing/work of the HOLY Ghost...
It may take lots of time preparing the ground (Matthew 13 about the sower & the seed one of my favourite parables), before the seed can grow, but it has to grow in our life span, if we have heard about it.
So I don't really am favourable of churches, who just accept & leave people as they are...the apostles didn't think of that as a good method, therefore there can't be any preacher or churchvisitor, being smarter than them (although Berg thought to be the smartest of all).
Like I said to Mike, sometimes you have to cut to heal...I think it's dangerous to gloss things over.Basically what many critics are saying is: we don't know, what the original words of Jesus are, things were added later of the followers...so things are very relative, besides Jesus was a mere man...if he has lived at all...I have read plenty about the range of the whole criticism, the cake took a lutheran preacher, who wrote a book, arguing, that all the writings of Paul are fake.
The arguments I find pretty shallow & church-history is not the only area, where historians have different opinions...but I have a book by a historian, who says by historical standards to analyse a time period, the NT-records are totally believable & true.
In the end it's just a matter, whether someone is touched personally by Jesus, feels being addressed,attracted...Mary in John 12 may be the most beautiful exsample.
So what I only did so far is, that I told you a certain thing is wrong in the light of the Gospel...you haven't asked for that, neither do you perceive that as a favour...but I feel also responsible...a good many things happen in life, because we don't intervene & are too much of a coward to do anything, as the least & often best, calling the police.That I mean well & do the right thing is obviously not really understood yet, but the necessary implementations by governments & whatnot are also often understood later...the same in raising children.I don't expect you to compliment me , I just hope it's allowed here...if not...like I said, I wished for a Christian
section of exfam or alternativeley I only visit sporadically & go places where I also learn something, also get corrected...what's wrong about being corrected?
I tell you, seeing it shortsighted, it would be "wonderful" for me to try again some relationship/marriage, but 2 years ago it finally dawned on me, that it doesn't jive with the message of the Bible.I realised, why many avenues of love weren't blessed & came to the conclusion, it's a closed chapter for me...there's worse than that or not?I have visited tons of websites, read many books to make sense of the various verses, going to the original languages & trying my best to find some loopholes....simply because there's a desire a need for affection...but it depends, what you have as a standard, pleasing one's flesh/self or trying to please God & adhering to higher principles...only with the help of God.