Posted by Farmer on March 01, 2010 at 07:44:56
In Reply to: Re: Prof. M.M.Ninan Emergence-of-Hinduism-from-Christianity posted by OT2 on February 25, 2010 at 17:01:31:
"Oh, and by the way, the Nag Hammadi library proves that classic Gnosticism arose in the 2nd Century; NOT that Christianity was a corruption of IT. Wrong."
OT2...the weekend was pretty much occupied with activities/work...so that I didn't have time to appreciate the further communication and postings of yours...realising how limited I am/become...strengthwise and in any other way.
I should start somewhere and I take that one quote of yours now...I have quite a few books about gnosticism...published a lot my view, that TF became more and more "gnostic"...thinking to know and the Carpocratians supposedly swapped wives...their motto kind of...the spirit is the real thing...the pure...body corrupt...so...body limited anyway...you cannot harm the real you/the spirit by bodily actions...so quite a few gnostics had an extreme libertarian view...others were very ascetic...both forms and inbetweens existed.
Now quite a few theologians think, that e.g. the Gospel of John & the letters are partly in answer to some of the gnostic viewpoints, some in history went as far as "disliking" the Gospel of John for thinking it to have "gnostic" characteristics...even some "stuff" of St. Paul is said to be in dealing with early gnostic elements...some think them to be a bit before AD in existence...others point at the importance of Simon Magus of Acts 8 "fame" for the whole gnostic "way of life"...I have a translation of the NT apocryphs...the main
ones and read them and can only say, they are in spirit way different from the Canon-scriptures...much got lost anyway in history about the gnostics and some can be retrieved either by Nag Hammadi...pieces or by what Iraeneus wrote against the heretics.
I settled for now for the opinion, that gnostics were already present in the first century...there were all kinds of people who rejected the Gospel, not only Jews, but also in & of other nations as well...from Samaria (Simon Magus) to the places Paul went...Paul said at the end of his ministry, that at his trial...he was all alone and nobody helped and assisted him...what a picture....same for Asia minor...not to speak of the messages to the churches of that region in Rev....the rejection started early
The reason I keep posting things about divers heresies and misconcepts of mankind, illbeliefs etc. is to encourage others as much as possible: we were not the only ignorant in history...it took us time to realise the deception...to have patience with oneself and others
at the same time to have a "routine" how to unmask the lie, the deception...and with time you get some expertise like any "FBI-detective" of some crime department
At the same time I am not ashamed to post things in "favour of heresies"...where the heresies kept in strong conservatism a "ritual/habit", which used to be partof Christianity, but then got bunked by stupid/progressive, theologians and pastors...leaders...tha's why the church is also pretty much a mess nowadays, because a lot of teachers aren't worth their pretty extensive/big payment/paycheque...but God bless the fewer very, very good ones.
Here's a further example of how hinduistic Bollywood and society has kept for long a tradition, which is also the same stance as the apostle Paul had regarding marriage of widows:better is to remain single...dedicated to Christ and his kingdoms...but the young could/should marry (only the older ones got supported)...nowadays widows marry as they like...with big pension etc (without a need)...so the attitude is much laxer than then...although by mosaic law (which proves again the remarriage restriction etc.) you could in any case...only that Christianity-standard...as I read it...stands somewhat above mosaic standard...in morality:
(2006_film)
Babul-Part 15 of 17...if you have 10 minutes....but I think that part is very touching...the daughter in law (Hindu-marriage) moves on the night(very often) of marriage to the house of her in laws..the bridegroom picking her up on a (white...very often) horse...henceforth she stays there...and is not supposed to return.She calls therefore her father in law in this piece of flick father/papa...mother in law, mother (mummy)...and regarding it her house....his counsel in the film is quite touching to me...
almost the same mercy Paul had with the young widows...but his own older brother is more conservative and rejects the idea at first of her marrying again...may be you see my point, that I can hardly think of a movie in the west ...much less more recently...having all that as a main theme...it's not on their mind anymore."Funny" that iconophil/idolatrous Rome and roman catholicism "meets" here in that flick...the young actor is per se one of the few or only male catholic actor in Bollywood...certainly the o n e "who has made it"
That's where at least one has to "hand it" to the Muslims...their strong aversion against idolatry...it's "funny" how roman catholics and even the orthodox try to justify it....Even if you can't read the Gospel...you can hear it (and learn reading)...I can't see, where you need pictures and nowadays cartoons to effectively "promote faith"...TF believed in it...I did too...in the beginning...but nowadays I am much for reading the word pure and good..either aloud to my children or by myself or listening to someone else...all this artwork-stuff is just man-glorification...I figure....(plus often pictures God and Jesus not even close to facts of the Bible...so I wonder, how good that ever was...even for the illiterate???)
This reference just shows what I have been reading since ages, that in many mythologies...old nations...tribes...there has been a report of a flood event...including "of course" of ethnical India...and Hinduism
However, as you notice of the Bible-critics, who have "mastered" this criticism/train of thought...just the mentioning of certain things in a book, doesn't mean, the book/religion is very old etc...so indeed that doesn't make Hinduism in itself very old (I like the reasoning in the links I posted, why Hinduism is most likely much younger, than it's staunch proponents want us to believe...or believing it themselves...priding themselves of following "T h e very religion"....just because it's supposedly so old...the same false logic the muslims have: Islam is the "last"...super big...religion...therefore it must be the best and right (yeah...and Sikhism and Bahai etc is even younger than that and must be even better...sigh)
I ran into such foolishness while still in TF @ 1979/80...a then friend of mind...head of a high-school in Germany confronted me (upon me giving him the TF Daniel classes as booklet) with the "traditional" (rather modern) view, taught in the seminaries at university.
I almost fell of my chair...in consequence it would have to mean, that Jesus never said/quoted Daniel as a prophet in Mt.24...
because for modern theologians, Daniel didn't live at the said times in captivity...but rather much later...simple reason behind it...the kingdoms presented in hyperbolic/parabolic wordings resemble too much the actual development in history and therefore, they can't imagine, that it was actual prophecy...the theologians rather see him as an apocryphic writer of the Maccabean times...I thought, how stupid can you get????...think of it...30 years ago I have been "plagued" with such idiocy...but now I see it in many shapes and forms elsewhere...so I am actually benefitting from it.
Back to Hinduism...the question is when did they write down the flood-"account"...I believe the Bible and God having his special
messengers in His own time...be it Noah or Moses...therefore all the other nations simply stand in "their shade" and just wrote what they heard 3rd and nth grade from others...if you follow Ninan's good presentation...which I only did in part I admit...then it's very questionable, that Sanskrit is very old...rather on NT-level...agewise...remains some old Persian language as some possibility...
Just to say, they have a hard time to prove what they like to think...so it seems to me for now, at first glance.
I am very happy and proud, that you have the necessary geological education and knowledge...I figure, plenty to stuff/stop the mean critics mouth...I have a few books about godly geology...by american Geologists...but I am not focussing in on it right now anymore...since the subject is only "on the table", if arguing with the scoffers and unbelievers or the trapped/lost sheep (sometimes hard to discern ; ) ) ...Anyway...besides the fact, that a major German laboratory proved to make coal from plant residues under high pressure in a short span...there are much further evidences...even many proves of a flood on a very wide scale...(I believe it to have been worldwide, but they won't go that far...that would be "too biblical" I suppose)
I have an "anti-evolution"-book by a German Prof...who included a nice picture...a wooden residue...a petrified residue of what has been a tree..a log...vertically..."cutting" through all the various layers...which evolutionists would say took "million of years" to get deposited there...very laughable in the light of such "Godly arte-fact"
I almost come to the end...interesting as it is...will take longer the whole subject/dimension...just my first reaction...have a wonderful blessed March 2010
oh...and some think "much of" the gap theory...that the chaos in Genesis had some reason...some war-scenario...leaving the earth a bit in chaos...darkness etc....that's a "big presumption"...no big further evidence is there..of course, one could think of God and His angels being before at war with the devil and his angels...having some clashing before creation...but I am not spending time on such "mind-games"...enough for me to have a drawer and label for such thoughts.
Excuse pls. typos and all other errors