Posted by Farmer on April 15, 2011 at 15:31:33
In Reply to: Re: Let Christ be the judge... posted by Skep on April 15, 2011 at 07:44:39:
Ok..Skep you start wonderfully and I think I agree with most of the beginning..only that the main issue was t h e sin against the holy Spirit...something you didn't really reply to or analyse via scripture...so I am a bit surprised by that...and yes sins against the Son of God are forgiven...
My main train of thought is, that we had / have the teachings of the Word NT and unfortunately we let them be relativated by Berg and Co what they really were supposed to mean...the various passages...trusting a man, who hardly knew a word of old Greek explains it to us...oh...everything by his direct anointing...sure....well, we swallowed that...that is my beef with the charismatics...even the smallest person can sputter some things and people will be in awe...kind of religious basic democracy...ruling "by spirit" from the bottom.But I couldn't discern that then...cause I had hardly any biblical point of reference in my life then.
I just refer now to those passages of your post I have more problems with:
Berg did not do that, did he? Maria and Peter did not do that, did they? Many of those still in TFI have not done that, did they?
Seems like it...I did argue before here on the board (btw. since when are you here???), that I don't know what Berg did in his dieing second...so again I say...leave it up to Christ...for the others remains still some time...but I said again and again...no they have not really repented yet...so we're waiting...what you say is therefore nothing new to me.
I am not about you but I am sure – yes, very sure – that the Holy Spirit has been talking to them, or has talked to them, but their deeds show what their decision has been so far about listening.
Well...I don't know whether you can apply the verse here, that he sends them strong delusions...fact is, they don't live the scriptural truth in many ways...but I said here many times...delusion is kind of a historical constant, just look at the Gnostic sects e.g. the Carpocracians...like I said many times or the just referring to the letters to the churches in revelation...there were others who mixed sex and religion...Berg wasn't the first and only one...which doesn't make it better...but I harp on that...because I want to take somehow the "wind out of this crazy sensationalism"...which befalls many Exer...as if only TFI did some bad in history...there was a lot of horror going on in the name of Christ...be it the inquisition to the crusades etc.etc....the list is long
...You completely misunderstand me..if you tend to think, that I want to make the deeds...the misdeeds of TFI look smaller by naming other horrors...but what makes you look "the other way"???....those other horrors are real too...and back to the headline...it's Christ who judges between those horrors etc.
That is one part of the story. The other part is when not listening to the “small still voice” becomes “blasphemy” against the Holy Spirit”.
Well you put that in quotation marks...blasphemy...for it would be better, if you could support that with scripture...otherwise it's just your way of looking at it...know what I mean?...Just by repeating an issue...doesn't make it more true...I argued, that I know of only one blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...a scriptural one...you haven't replied to that yet & kind of continue with you line of thought
It becomes so when from not listening, they decide to take the stand that the Holy Spirit is not telling them something.
You know Skep...you're starting to amaze me...I'll explain: I have a dear friend...living in the neighbourhood...fluent in Hebrew...and well enough in Old Greek, though he never passed highschool...he learned it at university at his
own initiative and will...to know better...he also has a bit of a charismatic background..was with youth with a mission in Albania etc. etc.... recently he told me...he wants to "split" because he can't hear the voice of God anymore...I still have to talk with him about that...
I mean Skep...we have the words of the apostle Paul...teacher for those out of the heathen...not enough???Sure...much more would be welcome also on my side...but did you never have a problem with "voices"...what makes you so sure, that what you hear is of God???When on a deceptive course like we were in TFI...I don't think I heard that much the voice of the Spirit....but I did feel countless of times the COMFORTER....I felt the love in desperation...I know that I didn't hear His voice...when I heard that I could marry again...I searched the scriptures and found out it cannot be...so was that the voice of God...that was after I had left...apparently you have none of these problems...good for you!!!!
Wonderful if you hear all that...to me you sound a "bit special"...that is also the charismatic line...to be in touch etc.etc....I have the Word and that is Spirit...that is Life.
The Holy Spirit has been telling them all kinds of things, even using their own prophets, but they were first deaf and blinded but then became rebellious and blasphemous by publishing false directives in the name of God.
Which prophets do you mean?????...are you also on some charismatic "trip"...I think those days are more or less over Ephesians 2:20....I am not dogmatic about it...but I see the manifold bad fruits of the charismatic movement...therefore I keep a safe distance.
Blasphemy is not resisting the truth of the Holy Spirit but knowingly going against that truth and actively seeking to suppress it and overpowering.
How can you overpower the Holy Spirit???
Blasphemy is manipulating people to prevent them from doing God’s will for them. Blasphemy is teaching false teachings and corrupting little children.
Oh..Skep...that is your definition..ok...you can try it...but rather have it supported by the Word and Word study...I'd prefer that
Now, on your not so-subtle call for mercy to avoid the subject on account of the guilt that some people may have for things they did in TFI…
Now you're starting to become very "funny"...you must not have read many of my post...your conclusion is so way of the track...I don't know whether I have more patience to reply to you...mercy is "God's business" and His very quality...but David of old OT...was pleading for mercy/life here for his child...and...you know it...didn't get it...so what are you talking about??
Don't you also know the scripture: Judge not...may be I should call you a little bit self-righteous...to wake you up ; ) pardon me...may be that prevents you from starting to attack those who just simply quote the biblical truth that Christ is the judge overall...what/whose mercy???...It's all in Christ's hand...given from the father...I really don't get your point you're trying to make.
(But then please "do your homework and appear here" and ponder about the very delicate question, whether people can loose their salvation...some argue...those who fall away never had it in the first place...others argue you're saved no matter what etc. etc....difficult I'd say...but again all on the line of mercy and grace...the warning chapter in 1.Cor. 6 etc. is really very sobering...I said that several times here before...but I do hope, you can repent...otherwise who would stand???...you can't stay saved by works either IMO)
I am sorry but I am not the right person for that job. If people feel guilty for things they need, they need to work on those. If they did something wrong they need to repent, ask for forgiveness, maybe even go through some other processes. It is not my job to forgive them unless they come to me but it is not my job to condemn them either. I am not condemning them at all. Let their words do it, and let God be the judge
....Did I say anything else really in essence ???then please quote it...oh and btw. I knew a dear sister never in TFI in Switzerland...her train of thought was to forgive people not only when they come to you...but even before that...her stance made me think...because mine was the one you just typed in