Posted by Doubtful on October 08, 2008 at 05:10:12
In Reply to: Re: Cult Suicides vs. Revolutionary Suicide posted by Edward on October 07, 2008 at 23:54:34:
> Remember I am doing research here, gathering information, which is much more casual than a finished project which has all footnotes, etc.
And your manner in which you go about it, casual or formal, is being criticized: you ignore the facts and testimony, and continue to quote non-existent "quotes."
> First let's be careful of the use of the term "cult". This term arose after the Jonestown incident, before which alternative religious groups were classified as "new religions" not cults, and few thought of them as anything but a different manner of thinking.
Wrong again. The term cult was already in usage before that, by anti-cult movements such as Free-COG founded in 1971, and in countless media reports.
Further, I will call the COG how I see it, not as a neutral-point-of-view "new religious movement," but as a cult, with the fully-intended highly negative emotional content attached. How presumptuous of you to come to an ex-member site and hawk politically-correct terminology.
> Second issue, the second largest known murder-suicide related to a modern religion was a group affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church in Uganda, the Movement for the Restoration of the [...]
And? So you give a huge rundown, containing both accurate and inaccurate data, nothing new, vaguely interesting, but mostly irrelevant to your original question of RS in the COG.
> My point is that the term "suicide cult" can take different forms, it does not have to be taught in a classroom, or in a formalized ritual, many of these groups may only be a belief or an attitude that fosters death or suicide.
This divergent point addresses something entirely different than your original (and I must add arrogant/presumptuous) insistence that Revolutionary Suicide existed in the COG exactly as in the PT: "if you were a member of the inner circle, then how come you never heard of the Mo Letter that quotes the exact belief of revolutionary suicide held by the PT, in the same time period 1978, and likely makes reference to the People's Temple doctrine that led to the incident."
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> This statement "suicide was interpreted by Berg as a major source of the growing repression towards all religious minorities." is one of the bases for Revolutionary Suicide. The repression of a belief, and the statement against that repression.
Again with that non-existent quote.
1) Who wrote it? You?
2) What is the exact hard source?
3) Why the faulty use of English? ("source" instead of "result?")
4) Why the faulty logic? (suicide a source of growing repression, rather than repression a source of suicide?)
This statement besides being wrong, as I've stated repeatedly, seems to be the SOLE foundation for your idea of RS exisiting in the COG. The fact that you would be able to understand such a poorly written sentence laced with faulty logic, one which you claim to be from an "expert" source but which you fail to provide a solid reference for, and the way you arrogantly use it to insist on an erroneous idea, suggests to me that you may well have written that by yourself.
>I see martyrdom as much different than suicide. In marytdom one is dieng for a noble cause they believe in, not just committing suicide. [...]These "new religious" relationships seem to have resulted in a sharing of belief systems.
Perhaps your starting point, which would have been far less arrogant and presumptuous, should have been: "1) does anyone here know of shared belief systems between the PT and COG, and 2) was the term 'Revolutionary Suicide' ever used in the COG?"
I hope I have answered those questions. But if I haven't by now, I doubt I will succeed in convincing you any further about anything. You do not seem capable of reaching new conclusions in response to the answers you receive. I will no longer participate in this discussion, as I am losing my patience. You have hardly been measuring up to the guidelines. And your inept response to the SG (second generationer) was the last straw.