In Reply to: Re: Go on please posted by WOW on March 02, 2003 at 16:05:33:
<One problem in the social sciences is their use of statistics. One has to be careful when generalizing observations and I'm curious now.>
true about social science. good social science keeps this in mind when collecting and analyzing data. still, there are indicators or trends that you can find.
"Have you talked to as many men and their experiences about their sexual encounters with women while in the family?"
Yes, some. I actually used to talk to them a lot even IN the F. Have always been what is called a guy girl. I was even told once by a couple of 'brothers' that I was travelling with (not sharing with) that I was just too different...you know how come you want to talk politics with me and talk about the WND's (remember those?) when my wife and the other women talk kitchen babies and romantic movies? that was not the only time I felt out of place even in that universe. I can surely cook, but it was not my life aspiration...babies, well they did not come by choice. And romantic movies sure I like, if they are good movies...the problem was having such a NARROW universe (a hole, not a universe) as a woman. How many women drivers have you met in the F. ? How many women went driving the provisioning team around? Why was it so? By contrast there were men in the kitchen and taking care of babies (unfortunately in many cases)...have you thought about that?
Wanna talk about your data as far as men are concerned? you or your personal friends? I find even NOW to this very day many ex members males still throw around a bible based predominantly sexist behavior...what else have they known 20-25 years in such an environment? but it would be time to think about it, don't you think?
<And a follow up question, do you think that because your conversations with females show that there was prevalent male-on-female sexual abuse (which I don't deny) then it follows that all males are perpetrators?>
good question. My conversation were not only with females and of course no, not all men are perpetrators. I can think of what I remember as some wonderful guys I met who showed what character can be like EVEN in very hard circumstances, but they were few. What is that quote by Viktor Frankl that says that no matter the circumstances we can choose the attitude we want to have about those circumstances? I will find it and post it.
<I was aware that many women didn't particularly liked the sharing part but I am also aware that many did.>
ahhhh, you were AWARE....let me play Meg Ryan while you do Billy Crystal here about the many that did..."and you know this because..." see me gesturing with my hand? So Billy Crystal motions...because...they...well I am not going to try to emulate the best faked orgams on screen here...but think about that scene if you have seen it. (insert humor here)
<I wouldn't say that 100% of them did, or even 50% but maybe 20-25% enjoyed the free for all sex.>
yes maybe. but the *consequences* for most were gendered and different and even for the women who enjoyed it gets to a point where....multiple pregnancies, illnesses, sickness...you see my point...it becomes difficult to 'enjoy'...now why don't some women step in here and provide some data...at least their own?
<About males it is difficult because males were expected to like it and seek it. Notice that the same stereotypes you assign to women also applied to men.>
true in some ways...but still...IF there was really LOVE and that word was used ad nauseam...how come love did not stop aggression? how come love did not provide hints...since sharing was a McDonald type practice...that was the thing that used to bug me no end...the sameness...the robotic quality of everything...the 1984 Orwellian way of 'coming together' you know...what does LOVE have to do with any of this? I am not saying that there were never true expressions of love or that some people did not really have feelings...I am saying that that CONTEXT was based on something else and the people who did were working against the grain and against gravity.
< I liked most of the women I ever was with but some of them I could have been well without even when they were all eager.>
you mean you were able to erect when you did not feel excited? or that you said oh you are so sweet but I am really tired...just a hand job or something? :-)
<I guess my point is that geenralities are dangerous and abuse was not only male-on-female but also female-on-male.>
true on generalities....about the other point true in part...can we take a poll?
< I wonder is there was any sexual abuse male-on-male. Do you know that?>
I am pretty sure there was in many ways...unreported in many cases. The male on male abuse could be carried out in many ways...other than sexual. You know...you take away their wife, you screw their wife...you send him on a faith trip really out of the way...there were many ways to make a guy go crazy.
you wanna keep going?