Posted by on February 09, 2011 at 17:10:37
In Reply to: Re: Vineyard posted by CB on February 09, 2011 at 07:53:32:
The head pastor over the Houston Vineyard I attend, is, I think, also over the entire Southwest portion of the US. The head of the Vineyard USA just retired from the Sugarland Vineyard here in Texas, where 10% tithe of the gross was mandatory for membership, which was a little rich for my blood, and not Scriptural.
Here are some emails I sent to the leadership at Houston Vineyard, for your elucidation:
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To -----, -----, -----, -----, ----- and ----- (current Houston Vineyard Pastors):
I am writing today to express thanks for the meeting I had yesterday with ----- and -----. I do hope that much headway was made for all involved. I will most certainly be in earnest prayer over what was discussed. I have no expectation of confidentiality among Houston Vineyard pastors; therefore I am addressing all of you on purpose.
I was given to understand that my suspension from the Prayer Team, on which I have served for years and years successfully, will continue unqualified, unless told otherwise, till further notice, and that my attitude will be noted during that same period (for all practical purposes apparently endless?), with the warning that such attitude has been the only cause of my social problems, most likely, with the instruction that my interactions with others should demonstrate that I am now not making the kind of judgments on people, or on the truth in general (?--very unclear the day after!) which caused them to react to me in the way that they did.
Sounds a little fuzzy; doesn't it? Please clarify again--I thought I had it as I left your office last night, -----, now I am not so clear--I've been trying to mull it over since last night, with very little sleep. You have told me my attitude and actions have narrowed my relationships, and/or the possibility of further ones at Houston Vineyard. That may be true of only the Small Groups and individuals with whom I have had conflicts over the last year or so since my divorce and multiple suicide attempts, and medication adjustments; learning to cope with my newly-diagnosed Bipolar Disorder Type I (it couldn't possibly be about the entire church--that's mere hyperbole, too!).
You (both) said you were suspicious that I would continue to "narrow things for myself" socially, if I followed the same attitude. I can understand that. I don't intend to. I would like to continue to attend Small Group at ----- -----‘s house. Yes, he did volunteer a personal opinion about ----- and said he was worried about me, and that he thinks my personality is a little like an Old Testament prophet, and that some people do find that a little hard to take a first, till they bother to get to know me, and see that I really love the Lord AND the church.
I do have some things to clear up with ----- you really offended me; brother. Like I said, though; I don't think Scripture, or anything else will convince you to do anything yet about these un-cleared matters, specifically because I am not important enough in any way to the church to do so, or because you haven't allowed God to convict you about them yet. Please prove me wrong.
I don't seriously think you will; ever.
The lack of the same problems you say have been solely my fault (and not ANY the fault of the way Small Group leaders/"facilitators" and/or neophyte Vineyard pastors have been picked/trained) the entire time of my Church in the City/Vineyard membership (at least 35+ years), both at the main Houston assembly prior to returning after my divorce, terrible spiritual and emotional pain, suicide attempts and prayer requests. Alan, Bill, and George never formed the opinion you have been forming of me in the last two short years, in which I have also been a faithful servant of God. I know you are trying to help, but I feel that you have definitely gone overboard, and have jumped conveniently to a false conclusion based on my angry venting to pastors, via emails alone, like I trusted I could in Living Waters.
But Living Waters is apparently much more spiritual and merciful than the rest of the Houston Vineyard, and expectations of confidentiality are honored there. Also there is less chance of "grapevine counseling" and outright gossip, which do seem to be able to be born in the regular Houston Vineyard’s Pastor's meetings, and most assuredly carried outside of there, into the church at large--SOMEONE is leaking it--I have my own dependable sources that get that information back to me--people who really actually love me, and care about my honor and good name, and really know my heart.
Anybody else of you who also does can step right up and tell me so--it would really appreciated it at this time! Really! It was not specifically said, but I almost felt invited to leave the church.
I have really only affected a very few people with my suicidal pain, and my bafflement and anger at their indifference, and even meanness, so quite a bit of this is "much ado about nothing"; I think. The other 99.9% of Houston Vineyard very likely doesn't even know I exist; except for seeing me go down front to pray faithfully every Sunday--and those who know I hear from God when I share what He shows me in words of knowledge, etc. I'm sure they note and remember me--they tell me so, later. They know I exhibit true gifts of the Holy Spirit on a regular basis--and you, Michael and David, know that I have for years.
I am not the HUGE bad guy my angry detractors have made me out to be. Not really. There is nothing dangerous about me.
My very long experience at several Vineyard churches (central Houston, Pearland, West and North Spring--I had no problems at any of them) makes it hard for me to take all the assignment of "blame" here for a very short period of time here at Houston Vineyard seriously, upon intelligent and unemotional reflection; although I am ready and willing to judge myself, so as not to be condemned with the world.
The quality of the training of Small Group facilitators/leaders and of neophyte pastors at central Houston over the last couple of years still concerns me greatly--I have never been treated, from the mid-'70s through 2007 as I was in a small 2-year period from ''09 through '10 by -----, ----- and ----- ----- one small group, at another small group with ----- and -----, and again -----, also a recently promoted woman pastor who publically attacked me verbally alone at the Storehouse before the love146.org presentation and the ensuing attempted conversation in the foyer between services, where my "interpretation' was that she lied about what she said to me to get me to leave the building, in order to shame me publically in the following Monday morning Pastor's meeting. -----, we still need to talk about this, unless you're not actually into reconciliation--seriously--I invite you to do God's will, and not to dodge it and just hope I'll actually die, or just disappear. God won't do either.
I have already forgiven everyone for my own spiritual health and well-being. I want to reconcile--God's way. I predict you won't.
Yesterday, you, Michael, and you, David, said that you would follow up on these matters when I expressed amused doubt that you would at all--sorry.
I hope that you do, although I do feel a little "swept under the rug". Those are my honest feelings; not an accusation. Sorry.
My own theodicy, long before I even heard of Vineyard, after leaving a sub-Christian cult which was actually a demonized late-'60s bastardization of what actually became the Vineyard, was one where I have always prayed for revival and renewal, with God confirming with signs and wonders following. After getting hooked up with and then leaving a Jesus People-type fellowship which ended up in authoritarian abuse and self-aggrandized leaders who were eventually run off, I joined a Four-Square fellowship--historically pretty sound, for the most part, with some admitted sins and mistakes in their history, which were publically repented of.
That also became a lesson for me--repentance of an entire movement and its fruits--something I dearly hope for the Vineyard.
So now, I always (for 35+ years here, now) pray for Vineyard according to the mistakes made in the 7 churches of Revelation.
Currently, Houston Vineyard seems to be Laodicean, and I mean that as a diagnosis, not a condemnation. That evident truth drives me to prayer. I know a lot of people who feel the same way. I pray we are all delivered from being convinced we're "rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing" (like "80% of membership as tithers", as you kind of bragged on Houston Vineyard, -----!), and know not that we're poor, wretched, blind and naked. That's my sincere prayer.
When the Toronto Blessing came to Houston in 1993-4, -----, you know that I was in the auditorium when you, ----- -----, ----- and the Holy Spirit came in, with all the signs following--we all participated; including you.
And, John Arnot personally asked me to follow and learn from the Holy Spirit at a meeting downtown--he picked me out of a crowd--so you all can see how important that was to me.
When the anointing is flowing, petty church power politics don't matter, and mercy, reconciliation and forgiveness is easy!
Without it, it's like sand in the gears, as we all three admitted.
The Toronto Blessing came and went at Houston Vineyard in 1994. Here in northwest Houston, at another Foursquare Church (the first really sound church I ever went to, soon after my cult experience!) near the Beltway and 249, called Victory Christian Center, it never stopped. That really surprised me, and really gave me hope for a return to those days for Houston Vineyard.
May we be provoked to godly jealousy!
Got to go!
“OT2”:
Thank you for your willingness to meet with -----l and me on Monday afternoon. I have 2 responses to your subsequent email:
1. Please forward your email to ----- to get her perspective on what you wrote.
2. I am surprised that you wrote this email, as it is a further example of the behavior we had discussed concern about, and suggested in the meeting that you discontinue, i.e. defensive, corrective, angry, discounting, and disrespectful reaction.
----- and I are suggesting that you discontinue correcting others in an effort to defend the truth, and discontinue a defensive and/or angry posture when you encounter any perceived immaturity, disrespect, or when situations do not go the way you would like them to, and to do so initially for 90 days to see if it makes a positive difference in your relationships with others. And if so, commit further to not practice such behavior going forward.
Please let us both know if you are agreeing to what we have asked.
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Yes. I am agreeing. With great difficulty
I still feel attacked, and severely and unfairly judged, by a very small minority of people in power, within a "new elite", if you will, in the current structure of Houston Vineyard, in a way that I never experienced in my 33+ other years there. I could not possibly be the only factor.
I still feel I have something valid to say, although it may sound like a "corrective, angry, discounting, and disrespectful reaction". I definitely don't feel respected, myself.
Do you really feel it's possible to just turn off my brain? I already did that in a cult--sorry. That's nearly impossible for me.
Will any of those who offended me be asked to bring their offenses to reconciliation, or not? That will tell me everything I need to know. It's only Christ-like IF you two, as pastors/representatives of the church, are also asking everyone else involved to do the same.
So far, you have not.
If I state what I see as unavoidable facts, is that defensive? If I am sending an email, and we are not face-to-face, how do you know my emotional state, unless I tell you? I don't feel angry; just puzzled and a bit confused. And hurt. And depressed
I have not discounted anything you said--I just don't agree with everything, as is my right.
You have commanded that I not serve on the Prayer Team. You have definitely not "suggested" it. You have not given me any assurance that Mtt 18 "church discicpline" will be carried out concerning others who have offended me, as Christ has commanded. You actually seem to be protecting them instead.
Yes, it is offensive to me that it is a one-way deal all around.
90 days; you say? OK.
Please also convince me you are pastoring others in the same way--James 3:17. It always cuts both ways, and, yes, a rebuke towards Harry and Jessica can legitimately start with me.
So, yes, I agree, with Scriptural provisos. I am not into "shepherding" or cults anymore, nor do you expect me to be; I am sure.