Posted by Farmer on February 22, 2011 at 06:20:11
In Reply to: Re: Recent Update posted by OT2 on February 15, 2011 at 14:31:35:
One of those verses I didn't find in any TFI memory book...but I committed that to memory in TFI...& it always intrigued me...concluding from it.. that there might/will be still some mysteries in heaven...I believe it for now (even if the knowledge of the Lord should be a s vast as the waters cover the see...may be emphasis on the knowledge of HIM)...so I am not really going along with those interpretations of 1.Cor. 13 now abiding faith, hope love...being only for now because then we would see everything...now walking by faith not by sight (Dispensationalists I found thinking like that)...I don't think so...why would God show us everything HE knows over there immediately???Although I don't mind in principle ; ) ... but I find it presumptious as well...a bit like wanting to sit at the right hand of him...
Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.
Dear OT2 and CB...I am a little late in joining the thread...which is very interesting (as also the other one)...I didn't feel like posting earlier, mostly for lack of time as I was...still am...greatly engrossed in acquiring books via ebay for my studying children [I believe in "book-knowledge" ; ) ...even though I seem to go overboard here and there ] ...to some very advantageous prices...compared to the store-prices...plus I got the offer for a full flat-rate...including for handy-communications....and with such opportunity I have to make decisions again (one lesson in life...sigh).For my very limited use I have now a very old handy...but calling my kids on their handys is not really that economic either....so I thought of looking into a new one, as I am actually saving by that offer.
So looking into various smartphones...software platforms..was/is very interesting/intriguing...kind of a believe-system all over again....I was stunned to learn, that on the S60 Symbian platform they even get via DOSBox emulator Windows 3.1 and other versions poorly running...but running..(also on the Iphone and the Android ones...I think)
Then to decide which smartphones...which applets actually "suck" and give away more from you...then you wish in terms of energy(battery) or security/information or which have a poor energy performance be it in connectivity or hazardous in use (close to the brain...again a "believe-system")...plus I don't necessarily want google and others constantly to know where I am roaming around....physically...if I should use their map...etc. service...
Like I said...almost a "war" of convictions...what software to have...what to erase!!!...which "system".Too much freedom...like in open systems.. might also not always be the best (see spooky applets)...reminds me of the spiritual...
So dear OT2...I am really happy, that you're back on the forum/board here (sorry for all that you encountered in the meantime...was already wondering what happened!) and that you enjoyed healing...I liked your exchange between you and CB...I really like her way of putting things, argumentative "methods" (She's wonderfully articulate!!)...and in many ways I share her thoughts and sentiments.At the same time I always appreciated and loved your frankness...knowing that you had to "battle it" too & much after TFI.
Now pardon me both, I imagine myself to have been longer in that very dangerous cult...so to distance myself from a lot of their stances...even if they are shared by "other" charimatic movements...has happened to be my journey...way of healing...by kind of going the opposite...in self-protection....although that happened not overnight, but rather slowly.(Too much bush-fire so to speak...enough to burn you)
In any event, we all have to give one day account, alone...are in front of the judgement seat of Christ...things we permitted...chances missed ..lacking fruits etc....sins not confessed & repeated...so I am not lecturing here as it might seem but just sharing my thoughts...something I stand for for the moment...even if it happens now to be for a longer time...and I am fairly content of the road I took since "then"...even if I "yearn" for some more experiences...but I am not dieing of expectation/desperation
...although I must say every desperation I have encountered on my journey...brought me to a better understanding...ways/thoughts/habits getting corrected...I love that later, but not when I am going through it ; )
1Cr 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
It seems to me that many "work" real hard on their own reputation...be they inside of TFI or "out of it"...the goal seems often in itself good, the way and means are/ may be not...meaning, it's all to the glorifying of Christ and God the Father...everything I have and own and are able to do or perform is due to them....so whereever there is a lack...sin ...or inability...I should look at it "objectively"...and then seek for help (or just leave it...to others...etc. )...being so incomplete and needy.Regarding Him speaking to us I often used the verses in Job...be it through sicknesses or a dream...can still be, I think.
Dispensationalists don't really seem to accept that from what I have read (just sticking "only" to the word...mostly the NT-letters ...which is wonderful anyway...)
I guess you acknowledge, that I too came from an ultra charismatic/gnosticladen group and then had to find my way @...with access to libraries...internet...books bought...I came to the thinking, that the truth should be somewhere between the extremes...neither of the extremes "excites" me anymore....(especially when I don't see much "delivered"...contrary to the claims)
I can't put God in a "thought box" of my own though...He doesn't fit...sure...I often thought of the verse of not quenching the Spirit...then on the other side are the warning verses...beware etc.Dispensationalist would hint at it that the "quenching not" was more for that time/early Christianity and the beware verses for then and even more for now.
I did realise one day the beauty of 1.Cor 14:3:
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. ...for me. => I don't have to "perform" anything like
"helps"...tongues"...discernments...knowledge...especially if I am not sure of the source (yardstick is the Word).I could "shut up" too...should even.
My best...most treasured contacts for long after TFI were, acknowledged, out of the charismatic scene or familiar with it at least...the little church I fellowship with now is well attended by former or still "closet" charismatics...who "refrain to perform"..in the given surroundings.But I have witnessed a tongue outbreak about a decade back of some brother/church-visitor...privately...who attended also a pentacostalic Bible church etc....but who's more or less leery/weary of what he has found in the former circles, being disillusioned too & of those I know many!!!.But also he failed to adhere to the admonition of 1.Cor 14...for if it were right...then there should have been an interpreter...there was none and no interpretation...I wondered about it then already and may be one day I should tell him...but where to start?...he's also divorced and married again.So sometimes I figure it's not up to me or the right time...I am not even a member of that church.Sometimes I get the feeling, that they are not happy with my stance...but if anybody would ask me of the inner circle...I would surely explain
As you know...much of the modern worship-songs are from the "leftists"...sorry...spiritually...not politically...just a pun intended...if the conservatives happen to be "right"...even if just imagined by them...(like fundamentalists are always right)...and a big bunch of them, we also sing in "our" church.
And to get my "dose" of "conservative dispensationalism"...I have visited regularly...even daily for a long time this website:
Why?...because it all centers @ the Word...but I am not saying that I am always content with their take...just to balance my way of interpreting.
I have posted there less than a handful of times...plus they happen to be against a lot...I am also against...meaning, being not for any of the "strange customs" of many/all big mainstream- churches...small isn't automatically right...but it makes you wonder...how big you can err even outside of TFI
So if the "vinyardists" happened to have shunned you..."silenced" you...stigmatised etc....put you in spiritual quarantine...well, so be it...if they want to have "peace" of you by distancing you...then may be....oh I leave that up to you ; )...and may be you have already shifted/moved on???
After TFI I don't want to ever be such "tithing member" anywhere again...I give my monthly contribution and support while in the service...but I also want to send donations, where I see it fit.
Many and amazingly most charismatic churches are these "ten percent plus xers"...they know they have a hard time to justify it...but they try anyway..."you happen to be more blessed"...if you give it to them...and in that they don't differ from TFI.
The poor sheep looking for guidance then think it over and give...who doesn't want to have more blessings in their life???
It really struck me and shocked me, that my schoolfriend wound up in such outfit...apparently even being part of one of the three founding couples ( and they all have their MA in divinity/theology...mind you)...The Exers all seem to sing the same tune in minor all over...and it's amazing, that even the exclusive brethren had their abuse-scandals...either drinking too much or sexual abuse...or both.
I figure...the great examples are neither to the "right" nor "left"...somewhere in between (modesty!moderation!)...I think I "feel" more "comfortable"...
one goes to any extremeist and they know their verses to squeeze something out of you ...to instrumentalise you...after all...we want to "grow"...being fruitful...and they know how to go about it....they also know weaknesses & in the worst case use that knowledge against you...the examples are manifold in the internet.
"My conclusion":...I 'd had it...Christ didn't make me free...to be again in bondage of some "well-meaning" earthly shepherd...or "profit"
May be I am a moderate cessationist???...I remember when I was still looking for a Christian mate/wife...I was on this matefinding Christian internetsite.This one pleasant woman...spiritually (happened in the earlier days without pics etc....that's what I meant)...was of the brethren-movement.She had in mind to have a husband with real deep Bible knowledge...so she mailed me some Bible conundrums/riddles...to see, if I would have the right answers...the first were easy...but it got more difficult ; ) and at one I had to pass ...she apologised, saying that she only knew one or two people with the right answer ; ) ...anyway...since she was so smart and studied...and apparently a cessationist...I asked her about revelation 11...what about the prophetiseing of those two witnesses...after all, the same wording as in 1.Cor. 13...she said it must be some singularity!???...I am now not getting into "their logic"...as also later I tried to understand it "better"...for the time being, in short, it doesn't satisfy me either, their stance .
When the perfect is come is also in the aorist...sure the Word/canon happens to be perfect (reminds one of Psalm 119)...(but did it all come in one instance???)...although we now have not the original text, but different copies and versions...so the original no doubt was/is perfect......to teleion could also very well be translated as: maturity..fits anyway better with the rest of 1.Cor 13...So when the maturity is there...then all these things cease/pause...tongues are interpreted widely as to "quiet down" before prophesying..since there are 2 different verbs...kind of hinting at two different "timezones"...one event should/could then happen before the other...prophesying kind of being logical to be taken away last...also much like the last witnesses in rev. 11..
I don't understand anyway the overemphasis of tongues...it was a witness mainly for the Jews...by OT-quotation...so what is the big deal about it now??...when it's not even interpreted...not even an understandable language...other than with the apostles/early church...that really beats me...plus they claim, you have to have it as a sign of being filled with the Spirit...doesn't stand scrutiny
I have been recently observing...when I studied up about the Jobst Bittner outfit...some "amazing" messianic get togethers in eastern Europe...I think it was the Ukraine...not sure though...it was a clip on youtube...it was pure tongues-confusion...no interpretation...which was worth the name...just a "happy confusion"
Watchman Nee I read/consulted some years ago ...almost decades back about it too...about such phenomena.
I got the German version of the book...so I think it is the following...have to otherwise dig deep to verify it ; )
I am not sure...that I agreed with all Watchman Nee said...it's more of a thesis about Adam...could be...other "normal" ...often heard explanations of the cessationists is, that it is from "below"
The standard "rhyme"/tenor anyway is...something is missing in your life (and I mean, who wouldn't really agree to that?!)...something was missing once and I got it then...you can have it too....
And I have books of Hagin..Copeland..Sumrell..Osbourne...Smith Wigglesworth...etc. etc....only to show, I did study up on the subject.I then thought Derek Prince was kind of a "moderate"/very educated charismatic among them.
I did get baptised "again" (I rather think my first time...going by the meaning of the word...immersing) at a function of William Lerrick in Switzerland 11 years back...although I'd preferred some natural waters...just to say: I tried to be "charismatically good"/improved...but then I also heard...witnessed...besides TFI...too many weird stories...it's pathetic in the emytological sense
There was a time...don't remember when...where I started to be thankful just for what I have...what Christ had suffered and laboured for...and what His heavenly Father was willing to give...to show His love for us...
Sure, bodily inflictions are a hassle...I could easily "do" with a young "energetic" body...I don't think, that I maintain it the best way possible anyway...so some is just normal use...then abuse of past or present...not God's fault.
This is one thing I sure woke up to: body...psychae/mind/soul...spirit...three things I have watch out for...if I act too stupid...my body and then my mind will suffer or vice vs..If I genuinely believe in Christ, being born again...then my Spirit is not really harmed by all that...but I might loose my chances/possibilities of being more of a witness (1. Cor. 5 is a good one on this...plus the letters to the churches in Rev.)
All in all...I am happy...when people are "happy"...be it charismatic...dispensationalist/cessationist...joy is something very spiritual...for me some of the most spiritual people are those with lots of real joy (not just earthly fun)...and of course with deep love.Thats why I think 1.Cor. 13 is such a major chapter. ...1.Cor. 3 explained me who are the immature...the babies...the fleshly/carnal...So if anyone would come me now with all that I am supposedly missing...then I'd counter with all that there is else in God's offering for now and eternity
It's strange...that leaders in their supposed spirituality...wind up very often in deep carnality...meaning adultery...fornication.I am not deeply blaming them...for I was not better...but may be they should also refrain from getting lifted up in pride....emphasizing their name and ministry.
I mean...I really tried to defend "strong" continueism for a very long time...even after TFI...but the defense-mechanisms are also with time easy to detect...how the apologists work...even TFI...
Mark 16:17 e.g. is hard to interpret as for those who will much later believe...for my limited knowledge believe is in the participle Aorist ..."feels" more like applying especially to the ones who already believed then...the early disciples ...see also a note/quote below...I don't mean to further argue now about the ending of Mark...the different versions etc.
I mean..if someone forces a Christian to drink poison, God just might save him in His mercy anyway...why not??...but I don't see an automatism.The biggest shame & misery coming from the charismatic movement stems from them easily implying, insinuating...that something very sinful must be involved on the side of the seeker...the petitioner.If he/she is not healed by the laying on of hands immediately e.g....well...the fault is with that person...could be...very likely (but then who is without sin may cast the first stone...the nasty comment/thought)...but then it causes a friction/partitioning in the community between those who are "clean...good behaved...wealthy and healthy" and the other rotten...still sinners....who should give more abundantly...among other things and issues ..so that their healing can take place.
On atheists website you find the question, why people with amputations are not "healed"...regain their former status...well apart from Smith Wigglesworth...where it's supposed to have happened...the question is valid...but it totally neglects the eternal beauty and importance of the Spirit too...even of the believer....so in a way unbelievers still seek a sign (plus logic...some valid laws in God's acting..lack of "contradictions" etc.)...and in that they are as jewish as the Jews ; ) ....pardon me...& on top of it...they look for wisdom...and are not satisfied with the answers the Christian apologists give them
2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
I sign off here for the moments...Wish you all "wonderful" experiences ...mostly...much love in Christ.
P.S.
Far from being complete ...as I don't think, that there is yet a very exhaustive approach...here's some info...I am sure you have read already elsewhere...but may be for the sake of others
...oh and by the way...I think I mentioned it already elsewhere here...Wayne Grudem was wrong at one point of his continueism-apology...as someone very learned pointed out to him. Ephesians 2:20...prophets and apostles is in the plural...so the Granville Sharp-rule doesn't apply...even if that rule in itself is by observation...a theorem so to speak...and it hasn't been found wrong yet...at least not in the biblical context...but valid regularly only in the singular...so prophets and apostles don't have to be one and the same people...as Grudem wanted to conclude...mistakingly.
Quoted from above link:
Dr. Bullinger, who prepared the The Companion Bible in the late 1800's utilizing the Text of the King James Version Bible writes: "They [the last 12 verses of Mark] contain the promise of the Lord, of which we read the fulfillment in Hebrews 2:4. The testimony of "them that heard Him" was to be the confirmation of His own teaching when on earth: "God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and divers miracles, and gifts of pneuma hagion (i.e. spiritual gifts), according to His own will". The Acts of the Apostles records the fulfillment of the Lord's promise in Mark 16:17,18; and in the last chapter we find a culminating exhibition of "the Lord's working with them" (vv. 3,5,8,9)."
Some comments in here I might ffurther look up: