Posted by Farmer on April 15, 2011 at 18:34:14
In Reply to: Re: sigh...still you didn't get it... posted by long term exer on April 15, 2011 at 17:14:04:
no "rhetoric drum" intended. I really meant that things are lost in translation- including my understanding of what you are meaning.
Thanks...that's why I used the analogy of conundrums etc....because in my own language there are plenty of texts...especially legal German...where I don't understand a hoot of what they're saying...I would have to study law or get an advocate...or other academic stuff is way beyond me...although I have the feeling that some hide behind a cloud of "very deep" latinised etc. words which function as some word shell or context shell and who knows whether they have cracked that himself.I watch nowadays with some glee, that some of our nice politicians have actually made some mistakes in their PHD-papers, by not quoting properly...which is a no-no according to the academic rules...but that is off topic...just meaning wise and smart is may be not the same....That's why I am all in favour of asking back...what someone meant and I was / am concerned about your appreciation or lack of it of the salvation prayer...that is pretty much all there is to it...
I didn't see a question asking me what I thought about the salvation prayer in the Family.
I realise...I should have asked you directly in the first place...straight and clear...instead I mixed in why I thought we need that prayer etc.
First reply of mine
The "system" never gave you any feeling of oppression??...the "dark side" of us doesn't bother you..???...that's why I wanted salvation...the "system" still bothers me with it's pseudo-freedom and do as you please ...a satanic slogan also...and yes, I don't like many of my own traits...still...
second of me:
I never insinuated, thought etc...that you're against "my religion"...whatever you understand by that.It only "plagues" and baffles me, that people can deny themselves (in hindsight) and may be others the beautiful experience of getting to know Christ in prayer
You could have replied all the while, why you feel the need to put a general salvation prayer with the rest of the oppression as you felt it
(you writing:
Long classes, purging sessions, emphasis on Wurmbrandt and Frankl, strict obedience without question, and a belief that what I had experienced in "getting saved" as being something very very real, were parts of what oppressed me.)
I don't see it mixed..you do, you add seemingly to me one bad to the other...and I wished to know why you had to do that???
I'm not sure about what you are comparing, the question about the salvation prayer and marriage. That is ME being lost in translation.
Well in a way you're unfaithful to Jesus...see???...sorry for that...but what else can I say...it's the awful truth...I am not better than you...don't conclude that, but I think I have it better with Jesus than without HIM.
I don't believe that people are only in " the dark side" if they haven't accepted the salvation prayer
Well I do...and I like to refer to the first chapter of John plus
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
...you can believe that or leave it,
or if they have another religion. I've met wonderful people who have no religion, have other religions than Christianity, and people who have a Christian religion.
Well...I think I showed plenty of appreciation for the deep wisdom I still find in how the Indians behave or think...much more than the Christians behave...often/normally...not always, because there are some farout good congregations still I suppose
...e.g. the Indian woman still cover their head...Christian woman don't see the need for that...falsely
Shortly before I joined COG, I had prayed a salvation prayer which I really believed. It was something very new to me. The way I see things now is that whatever a person's path is after the family will be different for some and I don't see people as not capable of having morals or values unless they are Christian.
Well...may be you read my lauding Perry Bulwer for his fine work of exposing things...that is very good...does he have morals?...I really think so a high standard I suppose...otherwise he'd be a hypocrite and I don't know him and just suppose he lives what he preaches...
But the danger is, that people get on a "works-trip" as we used to say in TFI and even outside TFI there are similarly coined words/terms...point is...you cannot be righteous enough in God's eyes...that is like washing our clothes with oily smeary hands or pulling yourselves out of a swamp...Jesus lived God's kind of righteousness and we can't do that on our own accord... you could read the death of a guru...how some Hindu Saddhu turned to Jesus or read what Saddhu Sundar Singh experienced or yet others along the line....I know for sure, that my righteousness is not enough...if I thought so...I would end up for sure in the last judgement....but I believe in Jesus...so I passed that...not because I am good, but because God is sooooooo merciful...but then I also have to start living along that line and we know how and where TFI differs there.
Regarding the "system", just like the family had a very sick society, Pol Pot had a very sick society. I can't compare Pol Pot with Helmut Schmidt. Did both make mistakes? sure. But there is a difference that is clear. I don't measure the world as "the system" where in the family it was used to separate members from society at large. Instead, I see TF like I see sick parts of "the system" or "the world" at large- where values and morals have gone awry.
I agree...but still it's the world/system at it's worst...that is what I meant...the system at it's best seems to be better as TFI...question is, whether we can include churches here...because they ..per definition of Jesus actually don't belong to the world , but are in the world!!
...sure there are good and very good leaders...I would never deny that...but the world shows...politics...private life...to what humans are capable of...and the lie IMO is that you can undergo some evolutionary process in the spiritual...to become better all the time...for me that is strong delusion.
There are very horrible things that happen in the world- speaking of that "dark" underbelly side. But that is not all the world is about.
I don't think I ever told you that your religion was a fairy tale you constructed. Neither have I ever criticised your spelling or typos. I make them too.
I am long over the perfectionist thing of having all correct on screen...one guy...a believer...in Switzerland...makes so many mistakes/typos...just incredible...but he has no time...often types online while at lunch-break...so how can I blame him?...kind of sympathetic...at other times hard to read.
And pls. forgive me LTE at times I use the "weapon" of provocation to see what you really mean or whether you just are overly optimistic...unclear or whatever...so that way I got an honest answer of you and I appreciate it...only I am much more pessimistic of the world and I don't intend to stay on earth "forever"...in the state it is in...with all it's injustice and horrors.